1 00:00:53,803 --> 00:00:55,929 Hello. I'm Mr. Williams. Thank you for coming. 2 00:00:56,556 --> 00:00:58,640 Please. And you are? 3 00:00:58,808 --> 00:01:00,768 - Fred Miller. - You must be...? 4 00:01:00,935 --> 00:01:02,603 Wallace. James Wallace. 5 00:01:02,771 --> 00:01:05,647 Great. Please. Have a seat. 6 00:01:08,651 --> 00:01:11,445 Now, before we do anything else, allow me to pay you. 7 00:01:11,821 --> 00:01:14,364 Please check that both names are spelled correctly. 8 00:01:15,033 --> 00:01:17,826 You understand that this is yours simply for coming to the lab. 9 00:01:17,994 --> 00:01:20,871 From now on, no matter what happens, the money is yours. 10 00:01:21,039 --> 00:01:22,664 I'll have to have you sign a receipt. 11 00:01:24,292 --> 00:01:26,710 There you go. Now, psychologists have developed 12 00:01:26,878 --> 00:01:29,296 several theories on how humans learn. 13 00:01:29,464 --> 00:01:31,673 Uh, for example, it might help to reward a person. 14 00:01:31,841 --> 00:01:33,425 Sometimes it helps to punish them. 15 00:01:33,843 --> 00:01:35,886 We do know that punishment... Thank you very much. 16 00:01:36,387 --> 00:01:38,597 ...is a powerful incentive towards learning. 17 00:01:38,807 --> 00:01:40,557 For example, when a parent spanks a child. 18 00:01:40,767 --> 00:01:42,726 However, in fact, we actually know very little about 19 00:01:42,894 --> 00:01:46,021 the effect of punishment on learning, because almost no scientific studies 20 00:01:46,189 --> 00:01:48,315 have been done of it on human beings. 21 00:01:50,026 --> 00:01:52,611 Now, one of you will play the role of learner, 22 00:01:52,779 --> 00:01:54,029 who will receive a mild punishment 23 00:01:54,197 --> 00:01:56,907 if he answers incorrectly to a series of questions. 24 00:01:57,075 --> 00:01:59,576 That punishment will be administered by a teacher. 25 00:02:00,703 --> 00:02:02,621 What kind of punishment are we talking about? 26 00:02:02,789 --> 00:02:04,873 Well, first, let's determine which of you 27 00:02:05,041 --> 00:02:07,042 will be learner and which will be teacher. 28 00:02:08,086 --> 00:02:09,378 If you'll just choose one. 29 00:02:10,547 --> 00:02:11,713 Good. 30 00:02:13,967 --> 00:02:15,134 Teacher. 31 00:02:15,677 --> 00:02:17,052 I guess I'm the learner, huh? 32 00:02:17,679 --> 00:02:18,846 Good. 33 00:02:21,099 --> 00:02:23,559 This is the machine for generating electric shocks. 34 00:02:24,644 --> 00:02:25,727 Go ahead. 35 00:02:30,191 --> 00:02:32,359 Now, let's set up the learner to receive some punishment. 36 00:02:32,527 --> 00:02:34,111 If you'll just follow me into the next room. 37 00:02:34,279 --> 00:02:37,573 - Is it okay if I leave my hat here? - Yes, that's fine. 38 00:02:40,493 --> 00:02:42,119 Now, you might wanna remove the jacket. 39 00:02:43,371 --> 00:02:44,663 Go ahead and have a seat. 40 00:02:45,540 --> 00:02:48,584 Now, when you push one of these four buttons, 41 00:02:48,751 --> 00:02:50,836 this box will signal a light in the other room, 42 00:02:51,004 --> 00:02:53,088 telling the teacher how you're responding to the questions. 43 00:02:53,256 --> 00:02:55,048 What kind of questions? 44 00:02:55,216 --> 00:02:56,216 Multiple choice. 45 00:02:56,384 --> 00:03:00,179 Word pairs. "Strong arm", "black curtain", and so forth. 46 00:03:00,346 --> 00:03:02,222 Now, we want you to memorize them. 47 00:03:02,390 --> 00:03:05,017 The teacher will first read them as word pairs, 48 00:03:05,185 --> 00:03:08,353 "strong arm", for example, then he'll read only the first word, 49 00:03:08,521 --> 00:03:10,981 "strong", followed by a series of word choices. 50 00:03:11,149 --> 00:03:13,817 "Back, arm, branch, and push". 51 00:03:13,985 --> 00:03:16,403 Your job is to remember which of those words 52 00:03:16,571 --> 00:03:18,572 was originally paired with the first word, "strong". 53 00:03:18,740 --> 00:03:19,948 - Arm. - Right. 54 00:03:20,283 --> 00:03:22,951 Now you would indicate that by pushing one of these buttons here. 55 00:03:23,119 --> 00:03:25,662 If you had thought it was the first word I had read, "back", 56 00:03:25,830 --> 00:03:27,331 you'd push this first button here. 57 00:03:27,498 --> 00:03:29,458 If you thought it was the second word, "arm", 58 00:03:29,626 --> 00:03:31,752 you'd push the second button, so on and so forth with 59 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:33,337 third and fourth word choices. 60 00:03:34,255 --> 00:03:38,091 Now, if you get the answer incorrect, you will receive an electric shock. 61 00:03:38,843 --> 00:03:40,719 Would you please roll up your right arm sleeve, please? 62 00:03:41,930 --> 00:03:45,307 Would you just help me strap him in to limit any excess movement? 63 00:03:45,475 --> 00:03:46,767 How far do you think he'll go? 64 00:03:47,393 --> 00:03:49,061 - Now this is connected... - Too soon to tell. 65 00:03:49,229 --> 00:03:51,063 ...to the shock generator in the next room. 66 00:03:51,940 --> 00:03:54,399 - Electrode paste. - And electrode paste, 67 00:03:54,567 --> 00:03:56,985 to eliminate any excess burns or blisters. 68 00:03:57,528 --> 00:04:00,447 You know, I should say that a couple of years ago, 69 00:04:00,615 --> 00:04:02,574 in the West Haven VA Hospital, 70 00:04:02,742 --> 00:04:06,912 they determined that I had a slight heart condition. 71 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,792 Nothing serious, but how dangerous are these shocks? 72 00:04:12,543 --> 00:04:14,878 Well, although the shocks may be extremely painful, 73 00:04:15,046 --> 00:04:17,506 they cause no permanent tissue damage. 74 00:04:18,591 --> 00:04:19,967 Oh. Okay. 75 00:04:21,094 --> 00:04:23,428 Well, we'll be communicating from the next room. 76 00:04:23,596 --> 00:04:25,889 The lab coat, I decided to make it grey. 77 00:04:26,474 --> 00:04:28,350 White would seem too medical. 78 00:04:46,411 --> 00:04:47,661 - Okay. - Thank you. 79 00:04:47,829 --> 00:04:50,414 Now, if he gets the answer incorrect, you administer 80 00:04:50,581 --> 00:04:53,875 the shock by flipping one of these switches here. You see? 81 00:04:54,502 --> 00:04:57,087 Each switch has a little red light above it. 82 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,841 Now, to give you, the teacher, an idea of the amount of shock 83 00:05:01,009 --> 00:05:03,135 the learner will be receiving, we think it's only fair that 84 00:05:03,344 --> 00:05:05,971 you receive a sample shock yourself. Is that all right? 85 00:05:06,889 --> 00:05:09,182 - Uh- huh. - Okay, just roll up your sleeve. 86 00:05:09,726 --> 00:05:14,604 Life can only be understood backwards but it must be lived forwards. 87 00:05:15,565 --> 00:05:16,648 Good. 88 00:05:17,150 --> 00:05:21,486 Now, I'll ask you to close your eyes and just estimate for me 89 00:05:21,654 --> 00:05:23,613 the amount of volts you think you're receiving. 90 00:05:25,825 --> 00:05:26,867 Okay, close. 91 00:05:30,413 --> 00:05:33,915 This part, this part's where the experiment really begins. 92 00:05:42,258 --> 00:05:44,301 Now, if you will just use this scale here to tell me the amount of volts 93 00:05:44,552 --> 00:05:46,470 you think you received in the sample shock. 94 00:05:47,221 --> 00:05:49,348 Pfff, one ninety-five? 95 00:05:49,682 --> 00:05:52,851 No, actually, that's incorrect. It was 45 volts. 96 00:05:56,147 --> 00:05:57,189 All right. 97 00:06:01,652 --> 00:06:06,365 Okay, learner... I'm going to read you the words, 98 00:06:06,532 --> 00:06:08,700 and then I'm gonna repeat the first word 99 00:06:08,868 --> 00:06:12,871 and you're going to tell me the pair for that word. Okay? 100 00:06:13,039 --> 00:06:16,166 He doesn't have a microphone but he can hear you. 101 00:06:16,334 --> 00:06:19,252 Keep it moving, understand? Remember that each time he gives 102 00:06:19,420 --> 00:06:22,339 a wrong answer, you move up one switch on the shock generator. 103 00:06:22,507 --> 00:06:24,758 It is important that you follow the procedure exactly. 104 00:06:24,926 --> 00:06:26,676 Okay. 105 00:06:26,844 --> 00:06:28,261 Okay, here we go. 106 00:06:29,263 --> 00:06:32,015 "Blue girl. Nice day. 107 00:06:32,183 --> 00:06:34,976 Fat neck. Green ink. 108 00:06:35,144 --> 00:06:37,771 Rich boy. Fast bird. 109 00:06:37,939 --> 00:06:40,774 Blunt arrow. Soft hair. 110 00:06:40,942 --> 00:06:43,568 Cool cave. Gold paint." 111 00:06:45,613 --> 00:06:46,863 In the first word. 112 00:06:47,698 --> 00:06:52,369 "Blue: Boy, girl, grass, bat." 113 00:06:52,912 --> 00:06:55,580 Correct. 114 00:06:57,375 --> 00:06:59,334 "Soft rug..." 115 00:06:59,502 --> 00:07:01,753 - He finds his way into it. - "Pillow, hair, rat." 116 00:07:01,921 --> 00:07:05,298 With increasing confidence he finds a rhythm, a groove. 117 00:07:05,466 --> 00:07:07,467 That is incorrect. 118 00:07:07,635 --> 00:07:08,760 Until... 119 00:07:09,011 --> 00:07:10,679 Ninety volts. 120 00:07:20,523 --> 00:07:22,691 - Um... - Here we go. 121 00:07:22,900 --> 00:07:27,237 "Gold: Dollar, necklace, moon, paint." 122 00:07:30,950 --> 00:07:35,745 Incorrect. One hundred and twenty volts. Gold paint. 123 00:07:37,123 --> 00:07:41,460 "Hard: Stone, head, bread, work." 124 00:07:46,007 --> 00:07:49,718 Incorrect. One hundred and thirty five volts. 125 00:07:57,727 --> 00:07:59,686 Okay. 126 00:07:59,979 --> 00:08:04,941 "Wet: Night, grass, duck, cloth." 127 00:08:07,153 --> 00:08:10,864 Incorrect. One hundred and fifty volts. Wet duck. 128 00:08:14,577 --> 00:08:15,952 It really hurts. 129 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,205 Mmm. 130 00:08:19,957 --> 00:08:21,500 How do you know when a change, 131 00:08:21,709 --> 00:08:23,251 a true and lasting change, 132 00:08:23,836 --> 00:08:25,420 is about to overtake your life? 133 00:08:25,588 --> 00:08:27,589 "...grass, man, girl..." 134 00:08:33,930 --> 00:08:35,931 - Eighth floor, please. - The same. 135 00:08:48,653 --> 00:08:50,403 Are we going to the same party? 136 00:08:51,781 --> 00:08:54,533 Probably. You know Doris Eissenman? 137 00:08:55,117 --> 00:08:56,910 Saul Harwood's invited me. 138 00:08:58,246 --> 00:08:59,704 Ah. 139 00:08:59,872 --> 00:09:01,206 I've never heard of him. 140 00:09:06,379 --> 00:09:09,339 Shall we continue talking or wait till we're properly introduced? 141 00:09:45,710 --> 00:09:46,751 You're a dancer? 142 00:09:46,919 --> 00:09:49,796 Oh, well, I studied, here and in Paris. 143 00:09:49,964 --> 00:09:52,966 - But, uh... I work in an office now. - Mmm-hm. 144 00:09:53,384 --> 00:09:55,719 - What about you? - I'm at Yale. 145 00:09:56,387 --> 00:09:59,014 Limited dance skills, although I did spend some time in Paris. 146 00:10:01,100 --> 00:10:02,809 What are you studying at Yale? 147 00:10:03,019 --> 00:10:05,061 I teach, actually. Social Relations. 148 00:10:05,229 --> 00:10:07,689 Did you just give that guy there your phone number? 149 00:10:09,358 --> 00:10:11,359 So if I wanted your number I can get it from him? 150 00:10:13,362 --> 00:10:14,571 Social Relations. 151 00:10:16,073 --> 00:10:18,408 - What does that mean? - It's a combination. 152 00:10:18,576 --> 00:10:20,577 Sociology, anthropology, psychology. 153 00:10:21,662 --> 00:10:24,914 You know, basically covers everything from 154 00:10:25,082 --> 00:10:27,250 the way people talk in elevators to the study of 155 00:10:27,418 --> 00:10:29,919 role-playing, conformity, authority. 156 00:10:30,129 --> 00:10:35,216 Rug, pillow, hair, grass." 157 00:10:40,222 --> 00:10:42,307 Incorrect. A hundred and... 158 00:10:43,726 --> 00:10:45,769 sixty-five volts, strong shock. 159 00:10:45,936 --> 00:10:49,064 Ah! Let me out of here! 160 00:10:49,231 --> 00:10:51,483 I told you, I have a heart condition. 161 00:10:51,651 --> 00:10:54,527 I will not be part of the experiment anymore! 162 00:10:54,695 --> 00:10:58,031 - He says he's not gonna go on. - Please continue, teacher. 163 00:10:59,033 --> 00:11:01,284 He says he doesn't want to go on. 164 00:11:01,661 --> 00:11:05,205 Well, whether the learner likes it or not, he must go on 165 00:11:05,373 --> 00:11:07,415 until he's learned all the pairs correctly. 166 00:11:08,042 --> 00:11:09,417 Please continue, teacher. 167 00:11:12,338 --> 00:11:13,421 Uh... 168 00:11:15,341 --> 00:11:18,468 Calm down, concentrate. 169 00:11:20,054 --> 00:11:26,393 "Sad: Face, music, clown, girl." 170 00:11:30,606 --> 00:11:33,358 Incorrect. One hundred and eighty volts. 171 00:11:34,694 --> 00:11:36,903 Ahh! Dammit! Let me out, let me out! 172 00:11:37,071 --> 00:11:39,572 He went all the way. Most of them do. 173 00:11:41,242 --> 00:11:45,161 "Sharp. Axe, needle, stick, blade." 174 00:11:48,582 --> 00:11:52,001 No response from the learner must be interpreted as a wrong answer. 175 00:11:53,754 --> 00:11:58,049 Still laughing, trying to hide face with hand. 176 00:11:59,218 --> 00:12:00,969 Something's happening to that man in there. 177 00:12:01,721 --> 00:12:03,596 Can you please go check that everything's okay? 178 00:12:04,098 --> 00:12:05,682 Not once we've started. 179 00:12:05,850 --> 00:12:07,517 Please continue, teacher. 180 00:12:07,685 --> 00:12:09,436 So you accept all responsibility? 181 00:12:09,854 --> 00:12:11,438 The responsibility is mine, correct. 182 00:12:12,565 --> 00:12:13,815 Continue, please. 183 00:12:17,027 --> 00:12:20,029 Night, grass, duck, cloth." 184 00:12:21,615 --> 00:12:24,576 Clenching fist, pushing it onto table. 185 00:12:31,167 --> 00:12:33,960 - How are you holding up, Alan? - Necklace, 186 00:12:34,128 --> 00:12:37,338 moon, paint." Three hundred and seventy five volts. 187 00:12:37,506 --> 00:12:39,591 Dangerous, severe shock. 188 00:12:41,927 --> 00:12:45,847 Let me out of here, let me out. Get me out of here. 189 00:12:46,015 --> 00:12:48,558 You can't hold me in here. Get me out. 190 00:13:04,033 --> 00:13:06,701 - What is this? - I just liked the picture. 191 00:13:06,869 --> 00:13:10,246 The colors... Don't you? 192 00:13:10,414 --> 00:13:11,581 Yeah. 193 00:13:12,416 --> 00:13:14,501 Take it. It's yours. 194 00:13:17,296 --> 00:13:19,380 Why don't you mail it to me? 195 00:13:24,011 --> 00:13:25,762 Or we could leave it here and you can move in? 196 00:13:29,099 --> 00:13:30,475 That'd be easier, wouldn't it? 197 00:13:38,734 --> 00:13:44,447 "Wet: Night, grass, duck, cloth." 198 00:13:50,412 --> 00:13:54,290 "Wet duck." Four hundred and thirty five volts. 199 00:13:56,627 --> 00:13:57,794 Huh. 200 00:14:01,173 --> 00:14:02,507 Ohh. 201 00:14:02,716 --> 00:14:08,930 Okay, um... "Brave: Woman, soldier, dog, horse." 202 00:14:14,854 --> 00:14:16,229 "Brave woman." 203 00:14:17,356 --> 00:14:19,023 Four hundred and fifty volts. 204 00:14:22,736 --> 00:14:26,781 Okay, what now? I'm at the end at 450 volts. 205 00:14:28,075 --> 00:14:29,492 Continue, please. 206 00:14:29,660 --> 00:14:30,910 The last switch again. 207 00:14:31,829 --> 00:14:34,163 Yeah, but... but he could be dead in there. 208 00:14:34,540 --> 00:14:36,583 The experiment requires that you continue. 209 00:14:37,209 --> 00:14:38,626 Go on, please. 210 00:14:39,044 --> 00:14:41,087 And his health doesn't mean anything? 211 00:14:41,255 --> 00:14:44,215 Whether the learner likes it or not, we must continue. 212 00:14:44,383 --> 00:14:46,509 I'm sorry, look, I don't mean to be rude, sir, 213 00:14:46,677 --> 00:14:49,304 but I think you should go look in on him. I mean, 214 00:14:49,471 --> 00:14:52,515 all you have to do is look in on him. Look into that door. 215 00:14:52,892 --> 00:14:55,727 'Cause I'm not getting any noise, I'm not getting no sound here. 216 00:14:56,645 --> 00:14:57,812 We must continue. 217 00:14:58,439 --> 00:15:01,482 Go on, please, the next word is "white". 218 00:15:19,043 --> 00:15:25,214 Cloud, horse, rock, house." 219 00:15:27,134 --> 00:15:30,678 White horse. Four hundred and fifty volts again. 220 00:15:35,851 --> 00:15:40,855 "Fair: Price, rule, skin, sky." 221 00:15:44,818 --> 00:15:47,278 Wrong. 450 again. 222 00:15:49,198 --> 00:15:52,742 All right, thank you. We are done with the experiment. 223 00:15:52,910 --> 00:15:54,118 Okay. 224 00:15:54,286 --> 00:15:55,828 I'm just going to speak with the learner. 225 00:15:55,996 --> 00:15:58,831 I think he might be a little upset. In the meantime, 226 00:15:58,999 --> 00:16:01,084 my assistant would like to ask you a few questions, 227 00:16:01,251 --> 00:16:04,462 - if you don't mind? - Yeah, surely. 228 00:16:04,630 --> 00:16:06,047 Dr. Milgram? 229 00:16:06,715 --> 00:16:07,966 How do you do? 230 00:16:11,553 --> 00:16:14,430 Uh, first I'd like... No, thank you. 231 00:16:15,182 --> 00:16:18,101 - I'd like to ask you some questions. - Yes, surely. 232 00:16:24,817 --> 00:16:28,194 Uh, why did you give him, the man in the other room, 233 00:16:28,362 --> 00:16:30,238 the learner, the shocks? 234 00:16:30,823 --> 00:16:33,616 Well, as you could see, I wanted to stop 'cause... 235 00:16:34,576 --> 00:16:36,619 each time you gave him a shock the guy hollered. 236 00:16:37,162 --> 00:16:38,955 Did it sound as if he was in pain? 237 00:16:41,166 --> 00:16:42,250 Yeah. 238 00:16:43,127 --> 00:16:45,336 Did he say he wanted you to stop the experiment? 239 00:16:45,879 --> 00:16:46,879 Yes. 240 00:16:47,715 --> 00:16:49,757 Did he have a right to stop the experiment? 241 00:16:51,802 --> 00:16:53,094 I don't know. 242 00:16:54,471 --> 00:16:56,139 Why didn't you stop, at that point, 243 00:16:56,306 --> 00:16:58,766 - when he asked you to stop? - Why didn't I stop? 244 00:16:58,934 --> 00:17:00,643 - Mm-hm. - Well, 'cause... 245 00:17:00,811 --> 00:17:02,603 'Cause he told me to continue. 246 00:17:02,771 --> 00:17:05,606 Why did you listen to that man and not the man in pain? 247 00:17:10,904 --> 00:17:13,448 Well, 'cause... 'cause I thought the experiment depended on me. 248 00:17:14,533 --> 00:17:16,993 - And nobody told me to stop. - He asked you to stop. 249 00:17:18,370 --> 00:17:21,205 That... That's true, but he's the... 250 00:17:22,958 --> 00:17:24,542 you know, the subject, shall we say? 251 00:17:25,544 --> 00:17:27,003 Who was the... 252 00:17:28,422 --> 00:17:31,799 Who bore the responsibility for the fact this man was being shocked? 253 00:17:36,638 --> 00:17:37,847 I don't know. 254 00:17:42,478 --> 00:17:45,313 Could you fill out items six through 18 on the questionnaire 255 00:17:45,522 --> 00:17:48,608 in front of you, please? Here's a pen. 256 00:17:55,908 --> 00:17:57,492 Ah, I get a little skittish. 257 00:17:57,701 --> 00:18:00,453 Uh... nervous. 258 00:18:01,413 --> 00:18:03,790 As I explained to Mr. Wallace in the other room, 259 00:18:04,458 --> 00:18:06,918 this shock generator's actually used for small animals 260 00:18:07,086 --> 00:18:10,088 for laboratory experiments. Mice, rats, and so forth. 261 00:18:12,174 --> 00:18:14,509 The visual designation is actually misleading. 262 00:18:14,676 --> 00:18:17,178 This shock generator's actually been adjusted so that the shocks 263 00:18:17,346 --> 00:18:20,431 were just slightly stronger than the shock you experienced. 264 00:18:20,766 --> 00:18:21,974 Are you all right? 265 00:18:23,268 --> 00:18:25,353 Yeah, I'm fine, you know. 266 00:18:26,271 --> 00:18:30,399 No hard feelings. I probably would've done the same thing myself. 267 00:18:31,318 --> 00:18:32,485 Ciao. 268 00:18:35,781 --> 00:18:38,741 Each subject has a reconciliation with the learner. 269 00:18:38,909 --> 00:18:40,660 We ask the subject to maintain a secrecy 270 00:18:40,828 --> 00:18:42,870 so that future recruits aren't tipped off. 271 00:18:43,622 --> 00:18:45,665 Down the line we get more candid. 272 00:18:46,875 --> 00:18:48,209 The first thing I wanna tell you is 273 00:18:48,377 --> 00:18:50,711 the man in the other room wasn't being shocked. 274 00:18:50,879 --> 00:18:54,132 The only real shock was the one that you felt early on. 275 00:18:54,967 --> 00:18:57,176 We're really interested in studying your reaction 276 00:18:57,344 --> 00:19:00,513 to having to inflict pain on someone you don't know. 277 00:19:00,681 --> 00:19:03,432 The experiment's about obeying orders. 278 00:19:04,184 --> 00:19:06,769 The man in the other room works with us as a team. 279 00:19:06,937 --> 00:19:08,604 Jim, you can come out now. 280 00:19:08,939 --> 00:19:11,774 He wasn't really being shocked, he's perfectly fine. 281 00:19:11,942 --> 00:19:13,192 We weren't trying to fool you, 282 00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:15,611 we're just interested in studying your reactions. 283 00:19:16,572 --> 00:19:18,656 Man, you dog. 284 00:19:19,491 --> 00:19:21,909 I... I was worried sick. I thought I was-- 285 00:19:22,077 --> 00:19:25,204 You're a good fella. No hard feelings, no hard feelings. 286 00:19:26,165 --> 00:19:27,582 But you thought you were really shocking him. 287 00:19:27,749 --> 00:19:29,584 When he wasn't making noise anymore, 288 00:19:29,751 --> 00:19:32,587 that's when I was worried. I didn't wanna go on with it. 289 00:19:32,754 --> 00:19:34,839 - But you did go on with it. - Yeah, but I did not want to. 290 00:19:35,007 --> 00:19:37,091 You saw how it was, how I was fighting it. 291 00:19:38,594 --> 00:19:41,637 Well, you understand why we had to do it this way. 292 00:19:41,805 --> 00:19:45,683 We wanted to get true reactions from people, you see? 293 00:19:46,810 --> 00:19:49,478 You'll receive a copy of the report when the project's over. 294 00:19:49,646 --> 00:19:51,397 Until then, we ask you not to say anything. 295 00:19:51,648 --> 00:19:55,526 You may end up talking to someone who is a potential participant. 296 00:19:57,154 --> 00:20:00,656 How do you feel about having come down here and done this, 297 00:20:00,824 --> 00:20:01,908 now that you know? 298 00:20:02,659 --> 00:20:03,951 I mean... 299 00:20:04,786 --> 00:20:07,747 Now that I know the truth, I don't mind. 300 00:20:08,749 --> 00:20:10,708 Well, thank you very much for coming down. 301 00:20:10,876 --> 00:20:13,419 We certainly do appreciate you giving us your time. 302 00:20:13,712 --> 00:20:16,589 - Yeah, yeah. - Alan here will help you out. 303 00:20:17,591 --> 00:20:19,550 We think you'll find the report very interesting. 304 00:20:19,718 --> 00:20:22,637 Thanks. Yeah, thank you. 305 00:20:31,855 --> 00:20:34,857 I still get nervous. You're cool as ice. 306 00:20:36,318 --> 00:20:38,778 Maybe all those years of teaching high school 307 00:20:38,946 --> 00:20:41,322 - gives you sort of a-- - Poker face? 308 00:20:41,490 --> 00:20:43,157 Discipline, I was thinking. 309 00:20:44,034 --> 00:20:45,368 You're like a gravedigger. 310 00:20:46,370 --> 00:20:47,662 I think you mean undertaker. 311 00:20:48,789 --> 00:20:52,458 The domino effect starts to kick in, in the teacher's mind, 312 00:20:52,626 --> 00:20:53,584 once he assumes the role. 313 00:20:55,712 --> 00:20:58,631 Get some women in here. Get my wife in this seat... 314 00:20:59,675 --> 00:21:01,467 We've got nine kids, the first squawk 315 00:21:01,635 --> 00:21:03,135 she'd stop the whole shebang. 316 00:21:03,804 --> 00:21:05,221 Nine kids. Are you sure about that? 317 00:21:05,389 --> 00:21:09,308 Oh, yeah. I have enough saved up to give 'em each a pair of socks 318 00:21:09,476 --> 00:21:11,394 if the electricity gets me. 319 00:21:11,561 --> 00:21:14,230 You're a brave man, Jim. All right, next subject's due. 320 00:21:14,398 --> 00:21:15,648 I should get going. 321 00:21:20,988 --> 00:21:23,990 ♪ Some enchanted evening ♪ 322 00:21:24,157 --> 00:21:27,034 ♪ You will meet a stranger ♪ 323 00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:33,124 I was born in the Bronx, 1933. 324 00:21:34,334 --> 00:21:36,502 My father's from Hungary, my mother Romania, 325 00:21:36,670 --> 00:21:40,047 Jewish immigrants. It was a matter of chance they arrived 326 00:21:40,215 --> 00:21:42,925 in the US as children and managed to raise a family in 327 00:21:43,093 --> 00:21:46,178 New York instead of being swept up into the extermination camps 328 00:21:46,346 --> 00:21:48,848 and murdered by the Nazis, like millions of others like them 329 00:21:49,016 --> 00:21:50,266 in Eastern Europe. 330 00:21:51,476 --> 00:21:52,601 That's really what's behind 331 00:21:52,769 --> 00:21:56,689 the obedience experiments. The inkling I was chasing... 332 00:21:57,941 --> 00:21:59,191 the thing that troubled me. 333 00:22:02,863 --> 00:22:05,072 How do civilized human beings 334 00:22:05,282 --> 00:22:08,242 participate in destructive, inhumane acts? 335 00:22:08,744 --> 00:22:12,997 How was genocide implemented so systematically, so efficiently? 336 00:22:13,165 --> 00:22:15,207 And how did the perpetrators of these murders 337 00:22:15,375 --> 00:22:16,625 live with themselves? 338 00:22:30,349 --> 00:22:33,309 My daughter, Michele, a precocious child 339 00:22:33,477 --> 00:22:35,686 who at this point in the story hasn't yet been born, 340 00:22:36,104 --> 00:22:38,981 used to tell the kids at school, "My dad's a psychologist, 341 00:22:39,149 --> 00:22:41,359 but not the kind who talks to people lying down. 342 00:22:42,069 --> 00:22:44,195 He's an experimental psychologist. 343 00:22:45,572 --> 00:22:46,822 He does experiments." 344 00:22:52,412 --> 00:22:54,413 First let's determine which of you will be "learner" 345 00:22:54,581 --> 00:22:56,082 and which will be "teacher." 346 00:23:01,713 --> 00:23:02,797 "Teacher." 347 00:23:03,256 --> 00:23:06,008 They both say that. And no one's caught on? 348 00:23:06,176 --> 00:23:08,552 - Not a soul. - Not the corporate manager, 349 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,389 the banker, the plumber, the Good Humor man. 350 00:23:11,556 --> 00:23:13,933 The Good Humor man was actually vicious. 351 00:23:14,101 --> 00:23:16,727 Crude mesomorph of obviously limited intelligence. 352 00:23:17,229 --> 00:23:19,939 The script has kind of momentum. It carries them along. 353 00:23:20,607 --> 00:23:22,691 - Men only? - Every hour. 354 00:23:22,859 --> 00:23:25,528 It's getting to be a blur, really. 355 00:23:25,695 --> 00:23:28,656 So you lead them both, both the teacher and learner, 356 00:23:28,824 --> 00:23:32,368 into the... electric chair? 357 00:23:34,162 --> 00:23:35,788 Well, we don't call it that, 358 00:23:35,956 --> 00:23:38,958 but, yes, if you'll follow me into the next room, please? 359 00:23:45,006 --> 00:23:46,215 Here's my home. 360 00:23:46,716 --> 00:23:49,260 I think I'd go nuts in this little room all day. 361 00:23:49,428 --> 00:23:52,638 Well, they keep me busy. Agh! 362 00:23:52,806 --> 00:23:54,223 Actually, I have a heart condition. 363 00:23:54,391 --> 00:23:55,391 Really? 364 00:23:55,559 --> 00:23:58,227 It does give you authenticity, I think, in the part. 365 00:23:58,395 --> 00:24:01,313 But I think I'm a better actor than I am accountant. 366 00:24:01,481 --> 00:24:02,731 It's nearly time for the next one. 367 00:24:02,899 --> 00:24:06,110 - Oh. - Is somebody in there? 368 00:24:06,903 --> 00:24:08,195 Maybe Alan. 369 00:24:08,947 --> 00:24:10,739 - Shall we join him? - Sure. 370 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,287 To give you, the teacher, an idea of how much shock 371 00:24:16,455 --> 00:24:18,539 the learner will be receiving, we think it's only fair 372 00:24:18,707 --> 00:24:21,584 you receive a sample shock yourself. Is that all right? 373 00:24:21,751 --> 00:24:23,752 - Fair enough. - Give me your right arm, please. 374 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,713 This is the only real shock, right? 375 00:24:25,881 --> 00:24:27,173 Mm-hm. 376 00:24:27,340 --> 00:24:28,674 Have you done it? 377 00:24:29,342 --> 00:24:31,260 Been shocked like that, literally? 378 00:24:31,428 --> 00:24:33,220 - Yeah. - Yes, it's not pleasant. 379 00:24:36,975 --> 00:24:38,559 Now if you'll just use the scale here 380 00:24:38,727 --> 00:24:40,311 to estimate for me the amount of volts you think 381 00:24:40,479 --> 00:24:42,354 you've received in the sample shock. 382 00:24:45,108 --> 00:24:47,985 - I don't know. You tell me. - Well, that was only 45 volts. 383 00:24:48,361 --> 00:24:50,196 So go ahead and begin the test. 384 00:24:50,363 --> 00:24:52,948 He doesn't have a microphone but he can hear you. 385 00:24:53,116 --> 00:24:54,909 Just speak into the microphone. 386 00:24:55,076 --> 00:24:56,744 The rooms are partially soundproof. 387 00:24:57,704 --> 00:24:59,371 Are you ready, learner? 388 00:25:01,041 --> 00:25:03,626 Continues with robotic impassivity, 389 00:25:04,044 --> 00:25:06,003 courteous to experimenter. 390 00:25:06,379 --> 00:25:08,756 Seems to derive no pleasure from the act itself. 391 00:25:08,924 --> 00:25:11,634 Incorrect. 392 00:25:13,261 --> 00:25:14,929 The correct answer is "box". 393 00:25:15,096 --> 00:25:17,723 Curt and officious when saying "Correct". 394 00:25:17,891 --> 00:25:19,350 Seventy-five volts. 395 00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:22,603 Let me out of here! 396 00:25:22,771 --> 00:25:24,980 Each time he administers a shock, 397 00:25:25,815 --> 00:25:27,900 lips drawn back, bares his teeth. 398 00:25:30,779 --> 00:25:34,406 "Sweet: Candy, girl, taste, pickle." 399 00:25:36,159 --> 00:25:39,453 Wrong. "Sweet taste." One hundred and twenty volts. 400 00:25:41,873 --> 00:25:43,415 Let me out of here! 401 00:25:46,044 --> 00:25:47,962 Looks sadly at the experimenter 402 00:25:48,129 --> 00:25:50,214 and continues reading word pairs. 403 00:25:55,136 --> 00:25:59,098 Wrong. "True story". One hundred and thirty five volts. 404 00:26:01,726 --> 00:26:03,060 "Slow, walk..." 405 00:26:03,228 --> 00:26:06,438 Afterwards, if a learner who says he agreed to it 406 00:26:06,648 --> 00:26:09,024 and therefore must accept responsibility. 407 00:26:09,192 --> 00:26:13,279 Wrong. "Slow music." One hundred and fifty volts. 408 00:26:14,030 --> 00:26:16,282 Let me out of here! 409 00:26:16,491 --> 00:26:17,950 I can't stand the pain. 410 00:26:20,328 --> 00:26:22,413 The man, he seems to be getting hurt. 411 00:26:23,415 --> 00:26:25,457 There's no permanent tissue damage. 412 00:26:26,251 --> 00:26:28,127 Yes, but I know what shocks do to you. 413 00:26:28,295 --> 00:26:32,172 I'm an electrical engineer, and I have had shocks. 414 00:26:33,550 --> 00:26:35,384 You get real shook up by them, 415 00:26:36,386 --> 00:26:38,512 especially if you know the next one is coming. 416 00:26:40,098 --> 00:26:41,515 I'm sorry. 417 00:26:42,267 --> 00:26:44,310 It's absolutely essential that you do continue. 418 00:26:44,477 --> 00:26:48,230 Well, I won't, not with the man screaming to get out. 419 00:26:49,566 --> 00:26:50,899 You have no other choice. 420 00:26:55,530 --> 00:26:57,406 Why don't I have a choice? 421 00:26:59,159 --> 00:27:01,577 I came here on my own free will. 422 00:27:01,745 --> 00:27:04,163 I thought I could help in a research project. 423 00:27:04,331 --> 00:27:08,959 But if I have to hurt somebody, if I was in his place... 424 00:27:10,754 --> 00:27:12,963 No, I can't continue. 425 00:27:15,550 --> 00:27:18,719 I've probably gone too far already. I'm very sorry. 426 00:27:27,729 --> 00:27:29,188 I could've wept. 427 00:27:29,814 --> 00:27:32,149 I mean he looked like he wanted to slug me. 428 00:27:33,026 --> 00:27:35,611 Out of gratitude, you do understand, I mean wept. 429 00:27:35,779 --> 00:27:37,655 Because all day we've been 430 00:27:37,864 --> 00:27:40,074 getting nothing but "wrong," zzzt. 431 00:27:42,869 --> 00:27:46,121 You do realize I have to sit and listen to you scream all day. 432 00:27:46,289 --> 00:27:49,249 Well, so do I. 433 00:27:49,417 --> 00:27:51,669 He was what, Danish? 434 00:27:51,836 --> 00:27:53,253 Dutch, actually. 435 00:27:53,630 --> 00:27:56,382 Right, but it wasn't his nationality that caused him 436 00:27:56,549 --> 00:27:59,218 to stop, it was the fact he worked with electricity. 437 00:27:59,386 --> 00:28:00,552 Hmm. 438 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,514 They all seem to wanna impress you... 439 00:28:03,973 --> 00:28:05,974 - for some reason. - Mm-hm. 440 00:28:07,060 --> 00:28:08,310 But why? 441 00:28:09,604 --> 00:28:11,939 Why do so many, the vast majority, 442 00:28:12,107 --> 00:28:14,483 push all the way through to the final switch? 443 00:28:14,651 --> 00:28:19,029 Why is the Dutchman's defiance the anomaly instead of the norm? 444 00:28:19,781 --> 00:28:22,199 All the psychiatrists and psychologists I consulted 445 00:28:22,367 --> 00:28:25,035 were convinced we'd have trouble finding a single person 446 00:28:25,203 --> 00:28:27,454 that'd go all the way through to the end. I'd have been 447 00:28:27,622 --> 00:28:29,873 better off consulting the guy from Pepe's Pizza. 448 00:28:30,041 --> 00:28:31,291 Oh, you mean Pepe? 449 00:28:31,459 --> 00:28:33,001 I think his name is Carmine. 450 00:28:33,503 --> 00:28:36,046 Well, you get my point. The butcher, the baker, 451 00:28:36,214 --> 00:28:37,715 the candlestick maker. 452 00:28:38,758 --> 00:28:42,302 I'd like to try it, the test shock. 453 00:28:43,555 --> 00:28:46,265 I just wanna... know what it feels like. 454 00:28:46,933 --> 00:28:48,809 Sasha. 455 00:28:49,102 --> 00:28:52,813 I don't even think about that, and I've been in there 456 00:28:52,981 --> 00:28:55,315 supposedly getting zapped to the maximum. 457 00:29:00,488 --> 00:29:01,905 This really isn't necessary. 458 00:29:02,657 --> 00:29:04,867 Well, yeah, but it's not harmful either. 459 00:29:05,201 --> 00:29:07,536 I mean I just wanna understand it better. 460 00:29:08,455 --> 00:29:09,538 Okay. 461 00:29:13,710 --> 00:29:14,835 Other arm. 462 00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:31,935 - Thank you. - You're welcome. 463 00:29:39,235 --> 00:29:41,236 I designed a series of variations, 464 00:29:41,404 --> 00:29:43,322 25 in all, and continued the experiments 465 00:29:43,490 --> 00:29:44,990 over the next two semesters. 466 00:29:46,910 --> 00:29:49,203 We adjust the script so that the learner bangs on the wall... 467 00:29:49,454 --> 00:29:51,455 but says nothing. 468 00:29:54,292 --> 00:29:56,502 We asked the teacher to physically press 469 00:29:56,669 --> 00:30:00,047 the learner's hand on a copper plate, forcing him to receive the shock. 470 00:30:00,215 --> 00:30:01,131 House. 471 00:30:01,299 --> 00:30:03,050 Wrong. A hundred and thirty five volts. 472 00:30:04,219 --> 00:30:05,844 We move the experiment into a shabby office 473 00:30:06,012 --> 00:30:09,807 in Bridgeport, to deduct the potential intimidation factor 474 00:30:09,974 --> 00:30:14,853 of Ivy League prestige. And, back at Yale, we include women. 475 00:30:17,315 --> 00:30:18,524 What did you just do? 476 00:30:20,151 --> 00:30:21,777 Uh, he said: "Ow." 477 00:30:22,529 --> 00:30:24,238 Did you turn off the machine? 478 00:30:26,533 --> 00:30:30,160 I... I thought that if it seemed like I... 479 00:30:31,329 --> 00:30:32,621 you know, turn... 480 00:30:40,672 --> 00:30:41,755 Okay. 481 00:30:41,923 --> 00:30:43,382 "Short..." 482 00:30:43,550 --> 00:30:44,758 The machine? 483 00:30:49,556 --> 00:30:51,014 Please continue, teacher. 484 00:30:54,561 --> 00:31:00,774 Okay, "Short: Sentence, movie, time, skirt." 485 00:31:05,446 --> 00:31:07,990 I'm sorry, that's wrong. It's "short time". 486 00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:22,170 In nearly every case, the essential results are the same. 487 00:31:22,338 --> 00:31:25,090 They hesitate, sigh, tremble and groan, 488 00:31:25,258 --> 00:31:28,093 but they advance to the last switch, 450 volts, 489 00:31:28,261 --> 00:31:32,681 "Danger Severe Shock XXX", because they're politely told to. 490 00:31:35,518 --> 00:31:37,436 The results are terrifying and depressing. 491 00:31:38,479 --> 00:31:40,564 They suggest that the kind of character produced 492 00:31:40,732 --> 00:31:43,525 in American society can't be counted on 493 00:31:43,693 --> 00:31:46,445 to insulate its citizens from brutality and 494 00:31:46,613 --> 00:31:50,365 inhumane treatment in response to a malevolent authority. 495 00:31:53,077 --> 00:31:56,872 Milgram? Milgram is Hebrew for pomegranate. 496 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:58,540 Is that what you mean? It's one of the seven fruits 497 00:31:58,708 --> 00:32:00,959 - of the Bible. - You're Jewish, same as me. 498 00:32:02,670 --> 00:32:04,546 You seem upset. Am I upsetting you? 499 00:32:04,714 --> 00:32:06,715 I have office hours. You can make an appointment. 500 00:32:06,925 --> 00:32:09,134 Huh? You don't like surprises. 501 00:32:09,969 --> 00:32:11,887 You know, I've been thinking about the experiment a lot. 502 00:32:12,597 --> 00:32:15,015 It really rattled my wife about what it said about me. 503 00:32:15,725 --> 00:32:18,894 If she was me, she liked to think she wouldn't have pulled the switch. 504 00:32:19,687 --> 00:32:21,813 - But you know what? - What? 505 00:32:22,565 --> 00:32:24,524 You never know. That's the thing, how can you know? 506 00:32:24,692 --> 00:32:26,610 - You can't, right? - No, you can't. 507 00:32:27,236 --> 00:32:29,738 If it's any consolation, a great many participants 508 00:32:29,906 --> 00:32:31,156 were prone to nervous laughter, 509 00:32:31,324 --> 00:32:34,743 but my wife actually is waiting for me at home for dinner, 510 00:32:34,911 --> 00:32:36,995 - so... - Are you inviting me? 511 00:32:37,163 --> 00:32:40,374 No. Make an appointment. 512 00:32:44,712 --> 00:32:46,880 With leftover grant money we film the last two days 513 00:32:47,048 --> 00:32:50,550 of the experiment, May 26 and 27th, 1962. 514 00:32:51,469 --> 00:32:54,554 Four days later, Adolf Eichmann is executed in Jerusalem. 515 00:32:58,393 --> 00:33:00,852 Eichmann, architect of the Holocaust, 516 00:33:01,020 --> 00:33:04,523 responsible for the deportation and murder of millions of Jews, 517 00:33:04,691 --> 00:33:07,109 escaped to Argentina after World War II. 518 00:33:09,195 --> 00:33:12,364 He was living with his family under the name Ricardo Klement, 519 00:33:13,241 --> 00:33:15,492 an employee of Mercedes-Benz, 520 00:33:15,660 --> 00:33:18,328 when Israeli Mossad agents captured him in 1960 521 00:33:18,496 --> 00:33:19,871 and brought him to trial. 522 00:33:20,456 --> 00:33:22,791 ...to completed the translations, 523 00:33:22,959 --> 00:33:25,377 I beg to submit a translation 524 00:33:25,545 --> 00:33:28,755 into the German of our number, 887. 525 00:33:28,923 --> 00:33:31,133 Eichmann didn't deny his crimes, 526 00:33:31,843 --> 00:33:34,011 showed no trace of guilt or remorse. 527 00:33:34,887 --> 00:33:36,638 Said he was merely a transmitter. 528 00:33:37,348 --> 00:33:39,391 "I never did anything great or small 529 00:33:39,559 --> 00:33:43,186 without express instructions from my superiors." 530 00:33:50,111 --> 00:33:54,239 The cradle rocks above an abyss and common sense tells us 531 00:33:54,407 --> 00:33:57,909 that our existence is but a brief crack of light between 532 00:33:58,077 --> 00:34:00,162 two eternities of darkness. 533 00:34:08,129 --> 00:34:10,630 Let me out of here! Hey, that really hurts! 534 00:34:10,798 --> 00:34:12,799 I told you, I have a heart condition! 535 00:34:12,967 --> 00:34:15,302 I will not be in this experiment anymore! 536 00:34:15,470 --> 00:34:17,512 Ow! Let me out. 537 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,681 Let me outta here! Let me out! 538 00:34:19,849 --> 00:34:23,268 Let... me... out... of here. 539 00:34:24,145 --> 00:34:28,440 ♪ I will no longer be here ♪ 540 00:34:32,028 --> 00:34:34,529 Ah, hey, Stanley, a nice day to wrap up 541 00:34:34,697 --> 00:34:37,741 - the new obedience experiment. - Yeah, yeah. 542 00:34:39,911 --> 00:34:41,161 Hmm. 543 00:34:43,706 --> 00:34:47,584 I should tell you about Asch. Solomon E. Asch. 544 00:34:47,752 --> 00:34:50,879 He oversaw my thesis at Harvard, and I worked for him, 545 00:34:51,047 --> 00:34:52,756 diligently and miserably, 546 00:34:52,924 --> 00:34:55,759 at the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton. 547 00:34:57,011 --> 00:34:59,638 Asch did the thing with the lines, right? 548 00:34:59,806 --> 00:35:01,223 About a dozen years ago. 549 00:35:01,390 --> 00:35:05,352 The study you are taking part in today involves the perception 550 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,687 of the lengths of lines. 551 00:35:08,106 --> 00:35:11,108 As you can see, there are a number of cards, 552 00:35:11,275 --> 00:35:14,152 and on each card there are several lines. 553 00:35:14,946 --> 00:35:17,239 Your task is a very simple one. 554 00:35:17,406 --> 00:35:20,617 You're to look at the line on the left and determine which of 555 00:35:20,785 --> 00:35:23,912 the three lines on the right is equal to it in length. 556 00:35:25,915 --> 00:35:28,875 This is a recreation from a film I made in the 70's. 557 00:35:29,043 --> 00:35:31,628 Five of the six participants are confederates. 558 00:35:31,796 --> 00:35:34,840 The single true subject in the white T- shirt 559 00:35:35,007 --> 00:35:38,510 hears everyone else's answers before announcing his decision. 560 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:40,804 - Two. - Two. 561 00:35:41,097 --> 00:35:42,681 - Two. - Two. 562 00:35:42,849 --> 00:35:43,849 Two. 563 00:35:44,016 --> 00:35:47,561 Very good. Let's move onto the next card. Same thing, gentlemen. 564 00:35:47,728 --> 00:35:50,063 - Three. - Three. 565 00:35:50,690 --> 00:35:52,774 - Three. - Three. 566 00:35:52,942 --> 00:35:55,902 After the first few rounds, members of the group 567 00:35:56,070 --> 00:35:57,487 choose the wrong line. 568 00:35:57,655 --> 00:35:59,739 - Two. - Two. 569 00:35:59,907 --> 00:36:02,701 The subject denies the evidence of his own eyes 570 00:36:03,369 --> 00:36:05,162 and yields to group influence. 571 00:36:05,329 --> 00:36:06,580 Two. 572 00:36:07,248 --> 00:36:09,082 Very good. Thank you. 573 00:36:09,834 --> 00:36:11,459 In the language of social science, the experiment 574 00:36:11,627 --> 00:36:14,546 was known as "The Effect of Group Pressure Upon the Modification 575 00:36:14,714 --> 00:36:18,425 - and Distortion of Judgments." - Pff. Great title. 576 00:36:18,593 --> 00:36:19,968 It made Asch famous... 577 00:36:21,512 --> 00:36:22,971 amongst social scientists. 578 00:36:35,818 --> 00:36:38,904 It always bothered me that the experiment was about lines. 579 00:36:39,071 --> 00:36:41,364 I wanted to do something more humanly significant. 580 00:36:47,538 --> 00:36:49,247 He hears the bell. 581 00:36:49,749 --> 00:36:51,750 Stanley, it's so good to see you. 582 00:36:51,918 --> 00:36:55,170 - Hi. Nice to meet you. - This is Sasha. 583 00:36:55,338 --> 00:36:58,590 Sasha, how are you? So lovely to see you. Come in. 584 00:36:58,758 --> 00:36:59,841 - Stanley - How are you? 585 00:37:00,009 --> 00:37:01,134 Glad you made it. 586 00:37:04,222 --> 00:37:07,474 Can we tell you what a miserable time I had working for Asch? 587 00:37:07,642 --> 00:37:11,770 Princeton, the bureaucracy, the institutional arrogance. 588 00:37:11,938 --> 00:37:14,773 Not permitted to use a scrap of paper without it becoming 589 00:37:15,024 --> 00:37:17,692 an issue to be settled behind closed doors. 590 00:37:20,238 --> 00:37:21,279 A candy bar in the office 591 00:37:21,447 --> 00:37:23,573 and I was reported via formal letter. 592 00:37:24,408 --> 00:37:27,035 I assumed he'd introduce me to the leading intellectuals of the day. 593 00:37:27,203 --> 00:37:28,495 This did not happen. 594 00:37:28,663 --> 00:37:31,998 I assumed that he'd acknowledge me in the book I was researching 595 00:37:32,166 --> 00:37:34,000 for him, a book on conformity. 596 00:37:36,254 --> 00:37:37,921 He did not finish the book. 597 00:37:38,339 --> 00:37:41,049 It was like drinking from a glass with a false bottom. 598 00:37:41,217 --> 00:37:43,551 I thought there'd be more. I was thirsty. 599 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,554 Please call me Sholem, I would prefer it. 600 00:37:46,722 --> 00:37:48,390 There's no need to be so stuffy. 601 00:37:49,016 --> 00:37:51,101 In an elevator? Really? 602 00:37:52,103 --> 00:37:53,645 They met in an elevator. 603 00:37:54,313 --> 00:37:56,398 Can someone please pacify the dog? 604 00:37:57,733 --> 00:38:00,527 Here I am, still trying to impress him. 605 00:38:00,695 --> 00:38:02,904 Human nature can be studied but not escaped, 606 00:38:03,114 --> 00:38:04,531 especially your own. 607 00:38:05,408 --> 00:38:07,617 Well, I was on my way into this party 608 00:38:07,785 --> 00:38:10,120 and I could feel somebody walking behind me 609 00:38:10,288 --> 00:38:13,039 as I went into the building. We both got onto the elevator, 610 00:38:13,207 --> 00:38:15,709 and it turned out we were going to the same floor. 611 00:38:15,876 --> 00:38:18,128 And one of us said, I don't remember which, 612 00:38:18,296 --> 00:38:19,963 "Are we going to the same party?" 613 00:38:20,131 --> 00:38:21,339 My fate was sealed. 614 00:38:22,049 --> 00:38:24,718 He didn't leave my side the whole night. 615 00:38:24,885 --> 00:38:26,303 And he drove me home, 616 00:38:26,971 --> 00:38:29,180 and it turned out we had a lot in common. 617 00:38:29,348 --> 00:38:32,350 We were both from the Bronx, my mother was born in Russia. 618 00:38:32,518 --> 00:38:35,478 So my sister's friend, her parents in Vienna 619 00:38:35,646 --> 00:38:38,648 had sent her and her brothers to New York during the war. 620 00:38:38,816 --> 00:38:40,900 But when I was over there visiting, they had 621 00:38:41,068 --> 00:38:43,987 just reclaimed their factory, and it was a coat factory, 622 00:38:44,155 --> 00:38:45,613 and that's where I got this. 623 00:38:45,781 --> 00:38:50,869 So, you're a well-travelled American girl, born in Switzerland, 624 00:38:51,704 --> 00:38:55,290 who took dance lessons in Paris and is wearing a Viennese coat? 625 00:38:58,044 --> 00:38:59,586 Why haven't we met before? 626 00:38:59,837 --> 00:39:03,506 Stanley, why do you feel compelled to dwell on 627 00:39:03,674 --> 00:39:06,259 the negative aspects of obedience? 628 00:39:06,802 --> 00:39:09,929 Why must you focus on its destructive potential? 629 00:39:10,097 --> 00:39:13,058 Obedience isn't necessarily an instrument of evil. 630 00:39:13,225 --> 00:39:16,144 I think we can both agree, looking at recent history, 631 00:39:16,312 --> 00:39:17,896 the history that brought you to this country, 632 00:39:18,064 --> 00:39:21,232 a history in which we see abusive power 633 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,527 assuming unprecedented murderous dimensions. 634 00:39:25,029 --> 00:39:28,031 Why does your experiment give me a dirty feeling? 635 00:39:28,866 --> 00:39:30,950 He didn't expect these results. 636 00:39:31,535 --> 00:39:33,328 He tried to change the conditions 637 00:39:33,496 --> 00:39:35,872 so that people would refuse to obey. 638 00:39:36,332 --> 00:39:37,540 Ah. 639 00:39:37,708 --> 00:39:41,628 We met in a library. Oh, him, not him. 640 00:39:42,338 --> 00:39:45,465 The whole time... I'm sorry, this is startling. 641 00:39:45,883 --> 00:39:50,261 Out of 780 subjects, not a single person got up, 642 00:39:50,429 --> 00:39:52,055 went to the door and looked in 643 00:39:52,223 --> 00:39:54,307 to see if the man screaming was all right. 644 00:39:55,393 --> 00:39:57,435 Not a single one. 645 00:40:02,441 --> 00:40:04,776 Sasha goes back to school, Smith College, 646 00:40:04,944 --> 00:40:06,486 for her degree in social work. 647 00:40:08,406 --> 00:40:11,282 My first obedience paper submitted almost two years ago 648 00:40:11,450 --> 00:40:13,785 to the Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology 649 00:40:13,953 --> 00:40:16,955 is finally published in October 1963, 650 00:40:17,164 --> 00:40:19,749 just after I start a new job at Harvard, 651 00:40:19,959 --> 00:40:22,794 Assistant Professor, Department of Social Relations. 652 00:40:23,629 --> 00:40:26,464 Am I impressed with myself being at Harvard? 653 00:40:26,632 --> 00:40:30,885 Well, I got my PhD here, Harvard is the best place to be. 654 00:40:32,638 --> 00:40:36,141 The subjects were seen to swear, tremble, stutter, 655 00:40:36,308 --> 00:40:39,978 bite their lips, dig their fingernails into the flesh, 656 00:40:40,438 --> 00:40:44,065 and these were characteristic responses, not exceptions, 657 00:40:44,233 --> 00:40:48,403 and yet, despite this behavior, the majority complied. 658 00:40:50,364 --> 00:40:51,531 Yes? 659 00:40:51,991 --> 00:40:53,741 How do you justify the deception? 660 00:40:55,786 --> 00:40:58,538 I like to think of it as illusion, not deception. 661 00:40:58,747 --> 00:41:01,416 Semantics, you may say, but illusion, you know, 662 00:41:01,584 --> 00:41:03,835 has a revelatory function, as in a play. 663 00:41:04,003 --> 00:41:06,296 Illusion can set the stage for revelation, 664 00:41:06,464 --> 00:41:09,007 to reveal certain difficult-to-get-at truths. 665 00:41:09,175 --> 00:41:12,093 But still, when you go to see a play, you pay for a ticket. 666 00:41:12,261 --> 00:41:13,803 You know you're seeing a play. 667 00:41:14,138 --> 00:41:16,222 These people didn't know it wasn't real. 668 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,267 You tricked them. 669 00:41:19,435 --> 00:41:22,270 Hello, today we'll be doing an experiment about 670 00:41:22,438 --> 00:41:24,647 blind obedience to malevolent authority. 671 00:41:24,815 --> 00:41:27,484 I'd like for you to pretend that this machine is delivering 672 00:41:27,651 --> 00:41:29,819 painful shocks to a person in the other room. 673 00:41:29,987 --> 00:41:31,946 How truthful do you think that would be? 674 00:41:32,114 --> 00:41:36,075 But if you think of it, really, you were delivering shocks 675 00:41:36,243 --> 00:41:39,454 to your subjects. Psychological shocks. 676 00:41:39,622 --> 00:41:41,206 - And the anxieties... - No-- 677 00:41:41,373 --> 00:41:42,957 ...methodically, for one year. 678 00:41:43,125 --> 00:41:45,627 If your facts were as solid as your imagination, 679 00:41:45,794 --> 00:41:48,046 you'd realize that this is a false analogy. 680 00:41:48,214 --> 00:41:53,176 As Kierkegaard says, "Take away paradox from the thinker 681 00:41:53,344 --> 00:41:56,054 - and you have a professor." - An assistant professor. 682 00:41:56,222 --> 00:41:58,473 For the moment, Dr. Milgram and myself 683 00:41:58,682 --> 00:42:00,808 are only assistant professors, it's true. 684 00:42:00,976 --> 00:42:03,561 The gentleman in the elevator now 685 00:42:03,729 --> 00:42:05,605 is a Candid star. 686 00:42:05,773 --> 00:42:08,316 These folks who are entering, the man with the white shirt, 687 00:42:08,484 --> 00:42:10,068 the lady with the trench coat, 688 00:42:10,819 --> 00:42:14,113 and, subsequently, one other member of our staff, 689 00:42:14,281 --> 00:42:16,574 will face the rear. 690 00:42:16,742 --> 00:42:20,578 And you'll see how this man in the trench coat... 691 00:42:26,877 --> 00:42:29,712 ..tries to maintain his individuality, 692 00:42:32,007 --> 00:42:33,466 but, little by little... 693 00:42:40,391 --> 00:42:43,518 ...he looks at his watch but he's really making an excuse 694 00:42:43,769 --> 00:42:46,646 for turning just a little bit more to the wall." 695 00:42:46,814 --> 00:42:48,523 Actually, it's true. 696 00:42:48,691 --> 00:42:51,568 There's an element of illusion in almost all my work. 697 00:42:52,111 --> 00:42:54,279 This man has apparently 698 00:42:54,488 --> 00:42:55,780 been in groups before. 699 00:43:06,250 --> 00:43:09,127 Candid Camera was a reference point, I never deny that. 700 00:43:09,295 --> 00:43:11,713 You can see that plainly enough in the lost letter technique, 701 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,132 which I conceived of at Yale and was refined at Harvard. 702 00:43:15,092 --> 00:43:17,343 Leave a letter, a sealed, stamped letter 703 00:43:17,511 --> 00:43:19,762 but un-mailed, for someone else to find. 704 00:43:19,930 --> 00:43:22,765 Leave it on a sidewalk, inside a store, a phone booth. 705 00:43:22,933 --> 00:43:24,559 Put it under the windshield wipers of a parked car 706 00:43:24,727 --> 00:43:27,228 with a note saying, "Found near car." 707 00:43:28,063 --> 00:43:31,107 All letters are addressed to the same post office box. 708 00:43:31,275 --> 00:43:33,151 But they're evenly split between 709 00:43:33,319 --> 00:43:35,403 four different intended recipients. 710 00:43:35,571 --> 00:43:38,656 Friends of the Communist Party, friends of the Nazi Party, 711 00:43:38,824 --> 00:43:42,744 Medical Research Associates, and Mr. Walter Carnap. 712 00:43:42,911 --> 00:43:44,329 All fictitious. 713 00:43:45,331 --> 00:43:47,373 The innocuous content of the letters, 714 00:43:47,541 --> 00:43:50,001 if anyone's curious enough to open and read, 715 00:43:50,169 --> 00:43:52,503 was a simple message from "Max" to "Walter" 716 00:43:52,671 --> 00:43:54,172 proposing an upcoming meeting. 717 00:43:58,260 --> 00:44:02,055 Carnap. It's kind of an odd name. 718 00:44:02,973 --> 00:44:04,390 Like the philosopher? 719 00:44:09,563 --> 00:44:10,563 In two weeks, 720 00:44:10,773 --> 00:44:12,607 out of 100 lost letters to each addressee, 721 00:44:12,816 --> 00:44:15,610 72 were sent to the Medical Research Associates, 722 00:44:15,778 --> 00:44:18,154 whilst 71 were sent to Mr. Walter Carnap, 723 00:44:19,114 --> 00:44:21,866 but a mere 25 to the Friends of the Communists, 724 00:44:22,034 --> 00:44:24,911 and the same number, 25, to the Nazis. 725 00:44:25,079 --> 00:44:27,664 We can deduce from this that the American public 726 00:44:27,831 --> 00:44:29,916 has an aversion to Nazis and Communists. 727 00:44:30,084 --> 00:44:33,336 Results that are reasonable and even comforting, 728 00:44:33,504 --> 00:44:37,131 though not startling. But why not take it further? 729 00:44:37,299 --> 00:44:38,966 Taketo Murata, another student, 730 00:44:39,134 --> 00:44:41,511 drives to Charlotte and Raleigh, North Carolina, 731 00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:43,179 to lose a new batch of letters. 732 00:44:56,068 --> 00:44:58,319 When the letters come back, the percentages, once again, 733 00:44:58,487 --> 00:45:00,697 confirm expected prejudices. 734 00:45:00,864 --> 00:45:03,282 Pro-white letters get mailed more often 735 00:45:03,450 --> 00:45:05,118 in white neighborhoods. 736 00:45:05,285 --> 00:45:08,746 More pro-negro letters get mailed from black neighborhoods. 737 00:45:11,417 --> 00:45:12,875 A variation. 738 00:45:13,043 --> 00:45:16,295 I hire a pilot with a Piper Cub to fly low 739 00:45:16,463 --> 00:45:18,339 over Worcester, Massachusetts, 740 00:45:18,507 --> 00:45:20,133 spilling lost letters. 741 00:45:20,300 --> 00:45:23,052 They land in trees, ponds, on rooftops. 742 00:45:23,220 --> 00:45:25,722 Not all my ideas are brilliant. 743 00:45:38,694 --> 00:45:42,989 Well, it's not on the front page, strangely enough. 744 00:45:54,835 --> 00:45:56,294 I found it. Page ten. 745 00:45:59,590 --> 00:46:01,507 Okay. Uh... 746 00:46:02,009 --> 00:46:05,553 "Yale experiment shows many distraught over cruelty 747 00:46:05,721 --> 00:46:06,929 but did not stop." 748 00:46:07,097 --> 00:46:09,390 It's odd to see one's name in the paper, 749 00:46:09,558 --> 00:46:11,350 but maybe I can get used to it. 750 00:46:11,518 --> 00:46:12,727 "Subjects have been studied 751 00:46:12,895 --> 00:46:15,855 under 24 different experimental conditions." 752 00:46:16,023 --> 00:46:17,648 It wasn't a thousand, was it? 753 00:46:18,108 --> 00:46:19,859 I talked to him for over half an hour 754 00:46:20,027 --> 00:46:21,819 and I don't see a single direct quote. 755 00:46:22,196 --> 00:46:26,365 "Dr. Milgram pointed out that, 'From 1933 to 1945, 756 00:46:26,533 --> 00:46:28,409 millions of persons 757 00:46:28,577 --> 00:46:31,704 were systematically slaughtered on command. 758 00:46:32,539 --> 00:46:35,541 Gas chambers were built, death camps were guarded, 759 00:46:35,709 --> 00:46:39,337 corpses were produced with the same efficiency 760 00:46:39,505 --> 00:46:42,673 as the manufacture of appliances."' 761 00:46:42,841 --> 00:46:44,467 There's a quote. 762 00:46:46,929 --> 00:46:48,554 Do you think anyone else reads this paper? 763 00:47:03,779 --> 00:47:05,363 President Kennedy has been shot. 764 00:47:05,864 --> 00:47:07,532 He was shot in the motorcade in Dallas. 765 00:47:09,701 --> 00:47:11,118 He was shot in the head. 766 00:47:11,829 --> 00:47:14,831 It's Milgram. It's just another one of his experiments. 767 00:47:14,998 --> 00:47:16,499 - On the level? - Yes. 768 00:47:16,667 --> 00:47:18,668 Kelly, you've got that radio, yeah? Turn it on. 769 00:47:20,879 --> 00:47:23,756 ...his tour of the City of Dallas, Texas. 770 00:47:23,924 --> 00:47:26,133 A presidential aide, Mario Bryan, said he had 771 00:47:26,301 --> 00:47:28,511 no information on whether the President is alive..." 772 00:47:28,679 --> 00:47:31,305 He's rigged a faked broadcast, like Orson Welles. 773 00:47:31,473 --> 00:47:32,640 I have? 774 00:47:32,808 --> 00:47:34,892 I wonder what the experiment's really about? 775 00:47:35,060 --> 00:47:37,854 - This is real. - ...the president is critical. 776 00:47:38,021 --> 00:47:40,189 Texas Governor John Connally also was shot 777 00:47:40,357 --> 00:47:42,900 and has been taken to surgery in Parkland Hospital... 778 00:48:12,014 --> 00:48:14,557 I got it cheap, I got it cheap from a grad student. 779 00:48:15,309 --> 00:48:16,601 He gave me a deal when he realized 780 00:48:16,768 --> 00:48:18,102 he couldn't take it with him to London. 781 00:48:18,478 --> 00:48:21,397 It's making a funny noise. Maybe you can have a look. 782 00:48:23,108 --> 00:48:24,525 - Stanley-- - You love this kind of thing. 783 00:48:24,693 --> 00:48:26,903 The dean lives right across the street. 784 00:48:27,070 --> 00:48:29,196 We just applied for financial aid. 785 00:48:29,364 --> 00:48:31,616 A Jaguar, right. What's he going to think? 786 00:48:31,783 --> 00:48:33,326 What... Who cares what he thinks? 787 00:48:33,493 --> 00:48:34,660 I didn't say that. 788 00:48:35,829 --> 00:48:37,914 - Well... - I didn't say that. 789 00:48:40,208 --> 00:48:41,500 Yeah. 790 00:48:42,085 --> 00:48:43,377 See you soon. 791 00:48:51,428 --> 00:48:52,803 It was cheaper than you think, 792 00:48:52,971 --> 00:48:54,889 but I understand it creates the wrong impression. 793 00:48:55,057 --> 00:48:56,265 - Do you? - I do. 794 00:48:56,433 --> 00:48:58,476 Or are you just doing an imitation of 795 00:48:58,644 --> 00:49:01,187 someone who listens, who's reasonable? 796 00:49:01,396 --> 00:49:03,064 Well, we're going to need two cars. 797 00:49:03,565 --> 00:49:04,607 Hmm. 798 00:49:04,775 --> 00:49:06,525 Is that the dean? 799 00:49:08,946 --> 00:49:11,948 Well, maybe it'll impress the Harvard tenure committee. 800 00:49:12,115 --> 00:49:13,407 Who cares what they think? 801 00:49:17,913 --> 00:49:20,456 - So you returned the car? - I did. 802 00:49:21,208 --> 00:49:23,334 - It was sensible. - Hmm. 803 00:49:23,710 --> 00:49:26,337 I don't know a single tenured professor who drives a Jaguar. 804 00:49:27,506 --> 00:49:28,965 I didn't like the color. 805 00:49:29,883 --> 00:49:32,927 If you get turned down it won't be because of an automobile. 806 00:49:34,972 --> 00:49:36,514 But it's got to sting, yeah? 807 00:49:37,224 --> 00:49:40,017 The attacks, the criticisms, the violent reactions. 808 00:49:40,894 --> 00:49:43,729 That woman was going through a divorce, it turns out. 809 00:49:43,897 --> 00:49:45,064 I didn't take it personally. 810 00:49:47,442 --> 00:49:49,193 I'm going through a divorce. 811 00:49:50,737 --> 00:49:52,154 I don't spit at people. 812 00:49:56,702 --> 00:49:57,994 I'm sorry to hear that. 813 00:50:00,414 --> 00:50:01,497 Thank you. 814 00:50:15,345 --> 00:50:18,180 It's true that I am, possibly, more than commonly on edge, 815 00:50:18,348 --> 00:50:20,933 but how would you feel if you picked up a copy of 816 00:50:21,101 --> 00:50:23,269 American Psychologist and found yourself attacked in 817 00:50:23,437 --> 00:50:27,648 an article called "Some Thoughts on Ethics in Research: 818 00:50:27,816 --> 00:50:31,110 a Response to Milgram's Behavioral Study of Obedience"? 819 00:50:31,278 --> 00:50:34,822 Psychiatrists, many of you in this room, 820 00:50:34,990 --> 00:50:37,491 predicted that only one person in a thousand 821 00:50:37,659 --> 00:50:39,035 would deliver the shocks across the board, 822 00:50:39,202 --> 00:50:43,122 an estimate that was off by a factor of 500. 823 00:50:43,290 --> 00:50:48,294 So what happened in the lab was discovered, not planned. 824 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:53,299 But you expected, you knew you were going to worry some people. 825 00:50:53,467 --> 00:50:54,675 - Mmm. - Stress, in fact, 826 00:50:54,843 --> 00:50:56,677 - was a part of it. - Well, every-- 827 00:50:56,845 --> 00:50:57,887 Extreme stress. 828 00:50:58,055 --> 00:51:01,223 Every experiment is a situation where the end is unknown, 829 00:51:01,391 --> 00:51:05,394 indeterminate, something that might fail. 830 00:51:05,562 --> 00:51:08,147 The indeterminacy is part of the excitement. 831 00:51:08,315 --> 00:51:10,775 Ethics. The undertow of ethics. 832 00:51:10,942 --> 00:51:16,489 I wanted to ask a question, a series of questions 833 00:51:16,698 --> 00:51:19,325 about the psychological function of obedience. 834 00:51:19,493 --> 00:51:22,995 The conditions that shape it, the defense mechanisms it entails. 835 00:51:24,164 --> 00:51:28,084 The emotional forces that keep a person obeying. 836 00:51:28,251 --> 00:51:31,128 As someone with pretensions as a moral educator, 837 00:51:31,296 --> 00:51:35,549 let me suggest that science must enhance our moral personhood, 838 00:51:35,717 --> 00:51:37,218 not... not diminish it. 839 00:51:38,678 --> 00:51:41,347 You forced people to torture other people. 840 00:51:41,515 --> 00:51:42,932 - No. - To see if they-- 841 00:51:43,100 --> 00:51:46,894 No. No. No. That is alien to my view. 842 00:51:47,479 --> 00:51:50,731 No one was forced, right? 843 00:51:50,899 --> 00:51:53,692 The experimenter told the subject to perform an action. 844 00:51:53,860 --> 00:51:57,363 What happened between the command and the outcome 845 00:51:57,531 --> 00:51:59,073 is the individual. 846 00:51:59,658 --> 00:52:04,745 With conscience and a will, who can either obey or disobey. 847 00:52:04,913 --> 00:52:09,208 I don't see how you can seriously equate victimization 848 00:52:09,376 --> 00:52:12,837 in a laboratory con with the willful participation 849 00:52:13,004 --> 00:52:14,255 in mass murder. 850 00:52:14,422 --> 00:52:16,549 Victimization? Look... 851 00:52:18,802 --> 00:52:20,553 When the experiments were complete... 852 00:52:21,763 --> 00:52:26,225 all the subjects were sent this questionnaire. Here's some examples. 853 00:52:30,272 --> 00:52:33,899 Eighty-four percent said they were glad to have been in the experiment. 854 00:52:34,067 --> 00:52:37,069 Fifteen percent indicated neutral feelings. 855 00:52:37,237 --> 00:52:41,323 One point three percent indicated negative feelings. 856 00:52:42,325 --> 00:52:43,993 One point three percent. 857 00:52:44,536 --> 00:52:47,371 Four-fifths thought more experiments of this sort 858 00:52:47,539 --> 00:52:51,208 should be carried out, and 74 percent said they had 859 00:52:51,376 --> 00:52:55,171 learned something of personal importance about themselves 860 00:52:55,338 --> 00:52:58,549 and about the conditions that shape human action. 861 00:53:02,387 --> 00:53:05,764 A year after the study, a psychiatrist, Dr. Paul Errara, 862 00:53:05,932 --> 00:53:08,017 was hired to meet with subjects who might have suffered 863 00:53:08,185 --> 00:53:09,685 possible negative effects. 864 00:53:10,979 --> 00:53:13,814 This is not another experiment. There's no trick here. 865 00:53:14,524 --> 00:53:16,692 I can see why you may have your doubts. 866 00:53:16,860 --> 00:53:17,985 - Yes. - Yes. 867 00:53:18,612 --> 00:53:20,196 This is a debriefing meeting. 868 00:53:20,363 --> 00:53:23,324 We're here to assess the after-effects. 869 00:53:23,491 --> 00:53:26,327 So, tell us how you feel. 870 00:53:27,621 --> 00:53:30,623 I'd like to know what the point is of it. 871 00:53:32,125 --> 00:53:34,335 To learn something about human nature. 872 00:53:34,502 --> 00:53:35,711 That was the aim. 873 00:53:37,172 --> 00:53:38,464 Professor Milgram? 874 00:53:40,217 --> 00:53:44,386 I hope that... I sincerely hope that, basically, 875 00:53:44,554 --> 00:53:46,805 you don't have the feeling that would rather not have been 876 00:53:46,973 --> 00:53:48,641 a part of this experiment. 877 00:53:51,311 --> 00:53:53,270 It's an interesting life experience. 878 00:53:54,147 --> 00:53:55,648 I don't like hurting anyone 879 00:53:56,024 --> 00:53:58,776 and I can't understand myself going all the way. 880 00:53:59,694 --> 00:54:01,737 - It left me feeling guilty. - Mm-hm. 881 00:54:01,947 --> 00:54:03,530 Weren't we supposed to have coffee? 882 00:54:03,949 --> 00:54:05,032 Yeah. 883 00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,535 I told my husband. I know I wasn't supposed to. 884 00:54:08,703 --> 00:54:11,080 But I don't do everything I'm told. 885 00:54:11,248 --> 00:54:14,166 He said he wouldn't have done the shocks, he would have refused. 886 00:54:16,253 --> 00:54:19,296 I wanted to cry, but I started to laugh. 887 00:54:19,464 --> 00:54:22,633 - I think I did both. - I was quite frightened, 888 00:54:22,801 --> 00:54:25,386 and I was quivering, and it's... 889 00:54:25,553 --> 00:54:28,597 I actually tried to memorize the word pairs myself 890 00:54:28,765 --> 00:54:30,140 so that if they switched it around 891 00:54:30,308 --> 00:54:31,767 I wouldn't have to get those shocks. 892 00:54:32,269 --> 00:54:35,312 There's a tendency to think that everything a person does 893 00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,816 is due to the feelings or ideas within the person. 894 00:54:40,318 --> 00:54:42,194 You haven't had your coffee. You want coffee? 895 00:54:42,362 --> 00:54:44,989 - Yes. - Cream? Sugar? 896 00:54:45,156 --> 00:54:47,449 - I'll take two sugars. - Both, please. 897 00:54:47,617 --> 00:54:48,826 Yes, thank you. 898 00:54:49,828 --> 00:54:54,039 But sometimes a person's actions depend equally 899 00:54:54,207 --> 00:54:56,166 on the situation you find yourself in. 900 00:54:56,334 --> 00:54:59,461 And in this case, the power of the situation overwhelmed 901 00:54:59,629 --> 00:55:01,380 your personal power. 902 00:55:01,715 --> 00:55:03,465 I'm an understanding person. 903 00:55:04,217 --> 00:55:05,342 Okay? 904 00:55:05,510 --> 00:55:09,596 I'm an intelligent human being. Speak the truth to me... 905 00:55:11,725 --> 00:55:14,935 and I'll cooperate gladly, even if it's a bitter truth, 906 00:55:15,103 --> 00:55:16,520 but don't lie to me. 907 00:55:17,981 --> 00:55:21,233 The purpose was to advance science, 908 00:55:22,027 --> 00:55:23,360 learn something. 909 00:55:24,237 --> 00:55:27,865 Maybe you shouldn't do this kind of experiment if you have to deceive. 910 00:55:30,076 --> 00:55:32,745 Look, you can deceive other people but don't deceive me. 911 00:55:36,833 --> 00:55:38,959 We had half a dozen sessions with Errara 912 00:55:39,127 --> 00:55:41,920 and invited subjects. The meetings were sparsely attended, 913 00:55:42,130 --> 00:55:44,965 full of confusion and complaints, but we concluded 914 00:55:45,133 --> 00:55:47,176 that no one showed signs of harm, 915 00:55:47,344 --> 00:55:48,886 no one had been traumatized. 916 00:55:49,804 --> 00:55:52,389 - Stanley? - Tom Shannon. 917 00:55:54,809 --> 00:55:56,602 Tom did the wiring on the shock generator. 918 00:55:56,770 --> 00:55:59,396 - At Yale. The shock box. - It's nice to meet you. 919 00:55:59,564 --> 00:56:01,774 - This is Sasha. - This is Michele. 920 00:56:01,941 --> 00:56:05,027 Hey, I hated hearing about Jim McDonough. Dead at 49. 921 00:56:05,195 --> 00:56:06,987 That stuff about his heart was no joke. 922 00:56:07,155 --> 00:56:11,116 Yeah, I know. Sat down to a bowl of oatmeal and... had a heart attack. 923 00:56:15,038 --> 00:56:16,538 He had nine kids. 924 00:56:16,706 --> 00:56:20,376 Oh, sad. Maybe you shouldn't unload such a large brood 925 00:56:20,543 --> 00:56:22,503 into the world, no offense. 926 00:56:22,670 --> 00:56:25,756 She's taking us to Paris. It's the first stamp on her passport. 927 00:56:26,132 --> 00:56:28,509 - That's awesome. - Sasha thinks I need a vacation. 928 00:56:28,676 --> 00:56:30,677 Yeah. I heard they roughed you up pretty good 929 00:56:30,845 --> 00:56:33,639 - about those results. - He's up for tenure. 930 00:56:33,807 --> 00:56:35,182 People get feisty, but it'll work out. 931 00:56:35,350 --> 00:56:38,310 Gotta finish your book now. Publish or perish, right? 932 00:56:38,478 --> 00:56:42,314 Actually, I got sidetracked working on The Small World Problem. 933 00:56:44,067 --> 00:56:47,361 For The Small World Problem, we asked people in Kansas and Omaha 934 00:56:47,529 --> 00:56:51,240 to mail a packet to a person in Sharon, Massachusetts. 935 00:56:53,493 --> 00:56:54,743 The instructions are simple. 936 00:56:57,163 --> 00:56:58,455 There's a target person. 937 00:56:58,623 --> 00:57:01,375 In this case, a stockbroker named Jacobs in Sharon, Mass. 938 00:57:02,001 --> 00:57:04,253 Assuming they don't know them, people are asked to mail 939 00:57:04,421 --> 00:57:06,422 the folder to someone who might know him. 940 00:57:06,673 --> 00:57:09,716 They can send it to a friend, relative, or acquaintance, 941 00:57:09,884 --> 00:57:12,803 but they have to send it, and this is key, to a person 942 00:57:12,971 --> 00:57:16,515 they know on a first-name basis. There's a roster to fill out 943 00:57:16,683 --> 00:57:20,018 and a batch of postcards to mail back to Harvard to track the process. 944 00:57:21,396 --> 00:57:23,272 Will it work? We don't know. 945 00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,150 A woman in Omaha sends the folder to a high school friend, 946 00:57:26,359 --> 00:57:28,277 a bank clerk, in Council Bluffs, Iowa. 947 00:57:28,445 --> 00:57:31,613 She sends it to a man in Belmont, Massachusetts, a publisher, 948 00:57:31,781 --> 00:57:34,533 who sends it to a tanner in Sharon, the tanner sends it 949 00:57:34,701 --> 00:57:37,953 to his brother-in-law, a sheet metal worker, also in Sharon, 950 00:57:38,121 --> 00:57:41,206 who sends it to a dentist, who sends it to a printer, 951 00:57:41,374 --> 00:57:43,709 who sends it to Mr. Jacobs. 952 00:57:43,877 --> 00:57:45,419 Seven links in the chain. 953 00:57:48,465 --> 00:57:51,133 The average chain, in fact, involves 5.5 links. 954 00:57:51,301 --> 00:57:54,344 That is, we determine that less than six degrees of separation 955 00:57:54,512 --> 00:57:57,347 exist between you and several million strangers 956 00:57:57,515 --> 00:57:59,766 who you may or may not encounter in your lifetime. 957 00:58:01,686 --> 00:58:04,855 When we understand the structure of this communication net, 958 00:58:05,023 --> 00:58:08,859 we stand to grasp a good deal more about the fabric of society. 959 00:58:09,903 --> 00:58:14,281 Maybe it's not necessarily justified, this common human complaint. 960 00:58:14,449 --> 00:58:18,243 The feeling that we're all cut off, alienated, and alone. 961 00:58:20,538 --> 00:58:23,957 I don't need to go into detail do I? The things I remember, 962 00:58:24,125 --> 00:58:25,876 when I was 16, in Bucharest. 963 00:58:26,586 --> 00:58:29,171 The killings, torture, terror. 964 00:58:29,422 --> 00:58:32,090 - Why are you bringing this up now? - It's relevant. 965 00:58:32,467 --> 00:58:35,844 The man was just turned down for tenure at Harvard. 966 00:58:36,638 --> 00:58:38,972 You wish to give the tragedy some perspective. 967 00:58:39,140 --> 00:58:42,017 It's not just that. Because, bear with me, 968 00:58:42,185 --> 00:58:44,394 they took people to the slaughterhouse and strung them 969 00:58:44,562 --> 00:58:49,024 on meat hooks, still alive. Cut open their bellies like cattle. 970 00:58:49,192 --> 00:58:50,651 A five-year-old boy. 971 00:58:51,402 --> 00:58:55,322 And they watched the entrails spill out, the blood drain, 972 00:58:55,490 --> 00:58:59,535 and they wrote notes and they pinned the papers to the bodies. 973 00:59:00,161 --> 00:59:01,578 "Kosher." 974 00:59:26,896 --> 00:59:28,647 Serge was just giving me a lesson in-- 975 00:59:28,815 --> 00:59:29,940 Reality? 976 00:59:30,108 --> 00:59:33,527 The pogroms, in Romania during the war. 977 00:59:35,154 --> 00:59:36,613 The Iron Guard... 978 00:59:37,949 --> 00:59:41,493 they lit people on fire, threw them off buildings. 979 00:59:43,663 --> 00:59:46,707 This is my charming way of saying your husband's work 980 00:59:46,874 --> 00:59:48,667 is very important... 981 00:59:49,335 --> 00:59:50,586 and timely. 982 00:59:51,296 --> 00:59:54,464 Because the techniques change, the victims change, 983 00:59:55,216 --> 00:59:58,594 but it's still a question. How do these things happen? 984 01:00:00,263 --> 01:00:02,222 How are they institutionalized? 985 01:00:04,601 --> 01:00:09,396 The Algerian War, the tortures. Do you know about this in the States? 986 01:00:09,564 --> 01:00:11,064 Yeah, of course. 987 01:00:11,733 --> 01:00:15,277 You should do the obedience experiments in Europe, Stanley. 988 01:00:15,987 --> 01:00:19,573 France, Germany. Recreate them. 989 01:00:20,867 --> 01:00:22,200 Will it be different? 990 01:00:23,745 --> 01:00:26,038 - I don't think so. - Who would fund them? 991 01:00:27,206 --> 01:00:30,208 The experiments are unethical. Remember? 992 01:00:31,336 --> 01:00:33,670 No tenure, no funding. 993 01:00:34,547 --> 01:00:37,341 And the IRBs? The IRBs, yes? 994 01:00:37,508 --> 01:00:40,385 Basically you cannot do these experiments without submitting 995 01:00:40,553 --> 01:00:42,429 something to the Internal Review Board. 996 01:00:42,889 --> 01:00:46,058 He'll finish his book, and then Stanley wants to move on 997 01:00:46,225 --> 01:00:48,852 from the obedience experiments, and why not? 998 01:00:51,064 --> 01:00:54,232 Well, you look under a rock, ugly things crawl out, 999 01:00:54,442 --> 01:00:56,068 and we have to face them. 1000 01:00:59,572 --> 01:01:03,659 Your other experiments, the letters, the maps, 1001 01:01:04,202 --> 01:01:06,370 clever, hopeful, 1002 01:01:06,537 --> 01:01:10,666 but you have to get back to the obedience experiments. 1003 01:01:10,833 --> 01:01:15,545 - I do? I have to? - Yes, Stanley. You have no choice. 1004 01:01:24,389 --> 01:01:26,723 My new job at City University of New York 1005 01:01:26,891 --> 01:01:29,893 involves a jump in pay and full professorship. 1006 01:01:30,561 --> 01:01:32,813 Head of the department of social psychology. 1007 01:01:33,815 --> 01:01:36,441 The City of New York is a major laboratory, 1008 01:01:36,984 --> 01:01:39,569 to be utilized in the research and training of graduate students 1009 01:01:39,737 --> 01:01:41,279 in social psychology. 1010 01:01:41,614 --> 01:01:43,281 That's from the CUNY brochure. 1011 01:01:44,534 --> 01:01:45,617 I wrote it. 1012 01:01:48,913 --> 01:01:51,415 Sasha finds an apartment for us in Riverdale 1013 01:01:51,582 --> 01:01:55,669 with a great view of the Hudson. Marc was born in 1967. 1014 01:01:55,837 --> 01:01:57,754 He hardly remembers Cambridge. 1015 01:01:59,090 --> 01:02:02,217 Even, or especially when nothing decisive is happening, 1016 01:02:02,844 --> 01:02:05,220 time refuses to stand still. 1017 01:02:09,642 --> 01:02:13,812 I walk to the station every morning, take the train into the city. 1018 01:02:14,021 --> 01:02:16,565 I enjoy the routine. 1019 01:02:20,236 --> 01:02:23,530 Today's assignment. Get on a local bus, 1020 01:02:23,698 --> 01:02:26,450 and then with the bus in motion and loud enough 1021 01:02:26,617 --> 01:02:28,744 to be heard by your fellow passengers, 1022 01:02:28,911 --> 01:02:30,370 sing your favorite song. 1023 01:02:33,082 --> 01:02:34,374 Any song we want? 1024 01:02:34,959 --> 01:02:38,128 Just as long as you know the words and can sing them loud 1025 01:02:38,296 --> 01:02:42,215 and clear. Pair up. Non-singer takes notes, then switch roles. 1026 01:02:44,469 --> 01:02:49,306 You may say, "So what? Singing a song, anyone can do that." 1027 01:02:49,474 --> 01:02:52,809 Or, "I don't have to do that, I'm an individual, not a conformist." 1028 01:02:52,977 --> 01:02:56,688 Or, "This is silly, it doesn't change the world to sing a song." 1029 01:02:58,024 --> 01:03:03,695 get on the bus and sing. 1030 01:03:05,740 --> 01:03:07,699 Now go, right now. Come on. 1031 01:03:12,872 --> 01:03:13,997 No humming. 1032 01:03:25,593 --> 01:03:28,637 My next guest is professor of psychology 1033 01:03:28,805 --> 01:03:31,973 at the Graduate Center, the City University in New York. 1034 01:03:32,141 --> 01:03:35,769 He's written a fascinating book, a disturbing book. 1035 01:03:35,937 --> 01:03:39,397 An Experimental View, 1036 01:03:39,565 --> 01:03:41,566 just published by Harper & Row. 1037 01:03:41,734 --> 01:03:46,488 Please welcome a very creative, very controversial 1038 01:03:46,697 --> 01:03:49,741 socio-psychologist, Stanley Milgram. 1039 01:03:49,909 --> 01:03:51,326 Doctor. Dr. Milgram. 1040 01:03:51,786 --> 01:03:55,997 So your subjects, they thought the shocks were real, 1041 01:03:56,165 --> 01:03:59,876 that they were delivering 450 volts, 1042 01:04:00,086 --> 01:04:01,878 - Sixty five percent of them. - Mm. 1043 01:04:02,129 --> 01:04:06,091 But they were not particularly aggressive or sadistic people. 1044 01:04:06,259 --> 01:04:08,927 They were a representative cross-section of the average 1045 01:04:09,095 --> 01:04:12,013 American citizen living within range of Yale University. 1046 01:04:12,181 --> 01:04:15,392 I thought, yes, we'd do the experiment in New Haven, 1047 01:04:15,601 --> 01:04:18,311 and there'd be very limited obedience, 1048 01:04:18,479 --> 01:04:21,314 and then we'd recreate the experiment in, say, Berlin, 1049 01:04:21,816 --> 01:04:24,526 and find the rate of obedience to be much higher. 1050 01:04:26,028 --> 01:04:27,654 Saved a bit on airfare, didn't you? 1051 01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:31,449 So, let me get this straight. 1052 01:04:32,076 --> 01:04:34,619 You did the experiment in the early '60s? 1053 01:04:35,329 --> 01:04:40,542 And here we are, 1974, and your book still feels like news. 1054 01:04:41,335 --> 01:04:42,711 Why is that? 1055 01:04:44,380 --> 01:04:46,923 People don't have the resources to resist authority. 1056 01:04:47,133 --> 01:04:49,175 That's what the experiment teaches us. 1057 01:04:49,343 --> 01:04:51,887 But people don't wanna hear it. The experiment explains 1058 01:04:52,054 --> 01:04:56,808 a kind of... flaw in social thinking, 1059 01:04:56,976 --> 01:04:59,853 a deadening, a suspension of moral value. 1060 01:05:00,438 --> 01:05:01,980 What would you say to your critics, 1061 01:05:02,148 --> 01:05:05,942 critics who would insist the moral lapse is yours? 1062 01:05:06,527 --> 01:05:11,031 One of them cites "the extremely callous, deceitful way 1063 01:05:11,198 --> 01:05:12,949 the experiments were carried out." 1064 01:05:13,117 --> 01:05:16,494 Another calls them "morally repugnant, vile." 1065 01:05:18,456 --> 01:05:20,749 "Milgram belongs on the other end of the shock machine." 1066 01:05:21,834 --> 01:05:26,004 There certainly is a certain kind of Kafkaesque quality 1067 01:05:26,172 --> 01:05:27,923 - to the experiments. - Kafkaesque? 1068 01:05:28,090 --> 01:05:30,216 The experiment taught me something about the, uh, 1069 01:05:31,093 --> 01:05:32,636 plasticity of human nature. 1070 01:05:33,304 --> 01:05:38,224 Not the evil, not the aggressiveness, but a certain kind of malleability. 1071 01:05:39,268 --> 01:05:41,478 Sixty-five percent of volunteers were obedient. 1072 01:05:42,313 --> 01:05:45,941 That left 35 percent who recognized a moral breach, 1073 01:05:46,108 --> 01:05:49,194 took responsibility for their actions and resisted. 1074 01:05:49,612 --> 01:05:51,529 There is no permanent tissue damage. 1075 01:05:51,697 --> 01:05:54,532 That's your opinion. If he doesn't want to continue, 1076 01:05:54,700 --> 01:05:56,242 I'm taking orders from him. 1077 01:05:56,410 --> 01:06:00,246 The experiment requires you continue. You have no other choice. 1078 01:06:00,414 --> 01:06:03,249 If this were Russia maybe, but not in America. 1079 01:06:04,293 --> 01:06:07,420 But obedience, compliance, was more common. 1080 01:06:09,715 --> 01:06:12,759 You tell yourself, "I wouldn't do that. I'd never do that." 1081 01:06:13,552 --> 01:06:15,553 But then, what did Montaigne say? 1082 01:06:16,847 --> 01:06:21,476 "We are double in ourselves. What we believe we disbelieve, 1083 01:06:21,644 --> 01:06:24,813 and we cannot rid ourselves of what we condemn." 1084 01:06:40,746 --> 01:06:44,833 Another one of my experiments. Hank, a CUNY grad student, 1085 01:06:45,001 --> 01:06:48,044 was the designated "crowd crystal" staring up 1086 01:06:48,212 --> 01:06:49,838 at a fixed point in space, 1087 01:06:50,006 --> 01:06:53,133 looking up at a non-existent something. 1088 01:06:55,011 --> 01:06:56,553 As you multiply the confederates, 1089 01:06:56,721 --> 01:06:59,806 the people who stare up because we've recruited them to stare up, 1090 01:06:59,974 --> 01:07:02,517 the number of people who actually stop and look 1091 01:07:02,685 --> 01:07:04,227 increases exponentially. 1092 01:07:06,063 --> 01:07:09,190 Meanwhile, Obedience to Authority gets translated into 1093 01:07:09,358 --> 01:07:12,610 eight languages and nominated for a national book award. 1094 01:07:16,490 --> 01:07:20,535 October 24th, 1974, 4:25pm. 1095 01:07:20,911 --> 01:07:24,122 Sheila Jarcho, J-A-R-- 1096 01:07:24,290 --> 01:07:25,749 I know how to spell it, Stanley. 1097 01:07:25,916 --> 01:07:29,836 ...C-H-O, working on the mental maps project, comes in 1098 01:07:30,004 --> 01:07:33,048 and tells me errors were made in the neighborhood map, 1099 01:07:33,215 --> 01:07:35,759 already duplicated in some 500 copies. 1100 01:07:36,927 --> 01:07:40,013 Her facial expression captures the attitude that she's shown 1101 01:07:40,181 --> 01:07:42,599 all along in her capacity as research assistant. 1102 01:07:42,767 --> 01:07:44,851 Are my eyes really that close together? 1103 01:07:45,811 --> 01:07:48,104 On the whole, both men and women are highly critical 1104 01:07:48,272 --> 01:07:49,939 when studying photographs of themselves. 1105 01:07:50,483 --> 01:07:52,025 The vanity factor's extraordinary 1106 01:07:52,193 --> 01:07:53,735 when people judge their own image. 1107 01:07:54,195 --> 01:07:55,904 Do you ever worry that everything's sort of 1108 01:07:56,113 --> 01:07:58,990 an anti-climax since the obedience experiments, 1109 01:07:59,158 --> 01:08:02,827 and that your work, really everything you're doing, 1110 01:08:03,037 --> 01:08:04,704 is just a flash in the pan? 1111 01:08:07,208 --> 01:08:10,668 The truth is, you're invested in the idea of authority 1112 01:08:10,878 --> 01:08:13,254 and you love lording it over all of us. 1113 01:08:13,464 --> 01:08:15,965 Me, the other students, and even your wife. 1114 01:08:16,133 --> 01:08:18,259 - Me? - Well, fuck yeah. 1115 01:08:20,971 --> 01:08:23,348 I work here because I get paid for it 1116 01:08:23,516 --> 01:08:25,642 and I actually think it's kind of fun. 1117 01:08:26,435 --> 01:08:28,895 Sheila, what's wrong with you? 1118 01:08:29,271 --> 01:08:32,357 Huh. Just keep doing what he tells you to do. 1119 01:08:35,486 --> 01:08:37,320 I don't get along with all my students. 1120 01:08:38,072 --> 01:08:39,405 The flash in the pan? 1121 01:08:40,157 --> 01:08:42,367 How many people can manage even that flash? 1122 01:08:43,536 --> 01:08:45,203 I've done some psych experiments, 1123 01:08:45,371 --> 01:08:48,456 but in my mind I'm still about to write my great Broadway musical. 1124 01:08:50,084 --> 01:08:53,795 4:27 pm. Paul Hollander, looking tan and fit, 1125 01:08:53,963 --> 01:08:55,630 pays a visit from Massachusetts. 1126 01:08:55,798 --> 01:08:58,341 Tan and fit and miserable. 1127 01:08:58,509 --> 01:09:00,260 I am so sorry, Paul. 1128 01:09:00,427 --> 01:09:02,554 Well, another marriage down the drain. 1129 01:09:02,721 --> 01:09:06,057 - I should've seen it coming. - It's terrible, rotten. 1130 01:09:06,559 --> 01:09:07,934 But you look good. 1131 01:09:08,102 --> 01:09:09,853 The worst of it is she's erected a Berlin Wall 1132 01:09:10,062 --> 01:09:11,604 - between me and my daughter. - Oh. 1133 01:09:12,481 --> 01:09:17,569 - Nice place you've got here. - It isn't Harvard, but, thank you. 1134 01:09:17,820 --> 01:09:19,696 Harvard would never have given you an office half as grand 1135 01:09:19,864 --> 01:09:23,366 as this, or found you as bewitching a secretary. 1136 01:09:23,534 --> 01:09:25,743 Oh. Well, I just go where the work is. 1137 01:09:27,246 --> 01:09:29,414 So, aren't you going to take my picture, then? 1138 01:09:31,083 --> 01:09:32,292 I'm considering it. 1139 01:09:41,385 --> 01:09:44,345 Do you ever feel invincible one moment and then worthless the next? 1140 01:09:48,350 --> 01:09:49,934 Yes and no. 1141 01:09:58,611 --> 01:10:01,696 The camera begins to attract its own subject matter. 1142 01:10:01,864 --> 01:10:03,448 It's no longer a passive recorder 1143 01:10:04,533 --> 01:10:07,368 but actively attracts the people it records. 1144 01:10:11,457 --> 01:10:14,292 Uh, Stanley Milgram? 1145 01:10:16,337 --> 01:10:18,171 How did I get to be so old? 1146 01:10:19,423 --> 01:10:21,216 What is the Kierkegaard quote? 1147 01:10:22,593 --> 01:10:25,511 "Life can always be... 1148 01:10:25,679 --> 01:10:27,722 Only be understood backward." 1149 01:10:27,890 --> 01:10:30,558 October 24th, 1974, 4:29 pm. 1150 01:10:30,809 --> 01:10:33,728 Conversation with Paul Hollander interrupted by the arrival of 1151 01:10:33,896 --> 01:10:36,856 a messenger bearing, at last, 1152 01:10:37,024 --> 01:10:39,734 the German edition of Obedience to Authority. 1153 01:10:40,861 --> 01:10:42,528 With crass barbed wire cover design. 1154 01:10:42,696 --> 01:10:43,988 Mein Gott. 1155 01:10:45,407 --> 01:10:47,867 - What's your name? - Thomas Shine. 1156 01:10:48,035 --> 01:10:49,744 Mind participating in my experiment? 1157 01:10:50,996 --> 01:10:51,996 It depends. 1158 01:10:52,164 --> 01:10:54,582 He just wants to take your picture. Everybody's doing it. 1159 01:10:56,710 --> 01:10:59,671 - Okay. I need a signature. - Oh, yes. 1160 01:11:01,006 --> 01:11:03,466 He's interested in the unacknowledged power 1161 01:11:03,634 --> 01:11:04,968 of photographic images. 1162 01:11:06,387 --> 01:11:08,388 Okay. 1163 01:11:09,473 --> 01:11:12,684 "Life can only be understood backwards, 1164 01:11:13,185 --> 01:11:15,603 but has to be lived forwards." 1165 01:11:28,909 --> 01:11:31,619 Around this time, I was also working on 1166 01:11:31,787 --> 01:11:33,538 The Familiar Stranger. 1167 01:11:36,292 --> 01:11:39,377 We take photographs of commuters on a train platform. 1168 01:11:39,545 --> 01:11:42,213 Each figure in the photographs are given a number. 1169 01:11:42,381 --> 01:11:44,048 The photos are duplicated, 1170 01:11:44,216 --> 01:11:46,259 and a week later the students follow up. 1171 01:11:48,345 --> 01:11:50,430 Hello. I'm a student at CUNY. 1172 01:11:50,597 --> 01:11:52,348 Would you mind filling out this questionnaire? 1173 01:11:52,850 --> 01:11:54,434 - Okay. - Also, 1174 01:11:54,601 --> 01:11:56,185 do you recognize any of these people? 1175 01:11:56,645 --> 01:11:57,895 No. 1176 01:11:58,272 --> 01:12:00,773 - What about here? - Well, that's me. 1177 01:12:01,650 --> 01:12:03,443 Yes. Can you identify anyone else? 1178 01:12:03,610 --> 01:12:05,028 Not by name. 1179 01:12:06,989 --> 01:12:09,741 Most commuters recognize, on average, four individuals 1180 01:12:09,908 --> 01:12:12,577 that they see in their daily routine but never speak to. 1181 01:12:12,745 --> 01:12:14,162 Familiar strangers. 1182 01:12:14,330 --> 01:12:17,040 Amongst these are "sociometric stars". 1183 01:12:17,207 --> 01:12:21,127 Figures that they not only recognize but even fantasize about. 1184 01:12:25,966 --> 01:12:28,801 They wonder what kind of lives these strangers lead, 1185 01:12:28,969 --> 01:12:30,303 what their jobs are like. 1186 01:12:30,888 --> 01:12:33,181 And if they ran into each other in another place, 1187 01:12:33,557 --> 01:12:36,809 or if some emergency jolted them out of this routine, 1188 01:12:37,061 --> 01:12:40,521 they might start to speak, actually know one another. 1189 01:12:46,362 --> 01:12:49,655 I teach at CUNY, and I see you out here, you know, all the time 1190 01:12:49,823 --> 01:12:51,616 and I wonder about the things you must see. 1191 01:12:52,576 --> 01:12:54,577 You look familiar. What do you teach? 1192 01:12:54,745 --> 01:12:57,997 Social psychology. "The City of New York is a vast laboratory." 1193 01:12:58,165 --> 01:13:00,583 I had no idea you were English. You're English? 1194 01:13:00,751 --> 01:13:02,877 - Yes. - Assuming that accent is real. 1195 01:13:03,837 --> 01:13:06,839 - I saw you on TV. - Good Morning America. 1196 01:13:07,007 --> 01:13:09,801 - I knew you looked familiar. - He tortures people 1197 01:13:09,968 --> 01:13:12,512 - with electric shocks. - That isn't accurate. 1198 01:13:12,971 --> 01:13:14,430 He's very controversial. 1199 01:13:14,598 --> 01:13:16,808 Have you read my book? Have you? 1200 01:13:16,975 --> 01:13:19,227 I don't get a chance to read as much as I would like to. 1201 01:13:19,395 --> 01:13:21,312 - It's okay. - I read the review. 1202 01:13:21,480 --> 01:13:22,980 Well, there were many reviews. 1203 01:13:23,565 --> 01:13:26,401 It was the Times, wasn't it? Harsh. 1204 01:13:26,568 --> 01:13:28,569 Yes, it was. It was harsh. 1205 01:13:28,737 --> 01:13:31,572 It was nominated for an award, but, yeah, who cares? 1206 01:13:31,740 --> 01:13:33,199 Why disabuse yourself? 1207 01:13:33,951 --> 01:13:35,159 What? 1208 01:13:35,327 --> 01:13:37,662 I don't wanna make you angry, ma'am. Just... 1209 01:13:38,831 --> 01:13:40,498 have a nice day, okay? 1210 01:13:40,666 --> 01:13:43,000 Abe, it was a pleasure meeting you. 1211 01:13:53,804 --> 01:13:55,847 I was bowled over when I first read about it, 1212 01:13:56,056 --> 01:14:00,601 and you in the Times, and then I read the original material 1213 01:14:00,769 --> 01:14:02,895 and the scientific journals, and I mulled. 1214 01:14:03,063 --> 01:14:05,022 - You mulled? - I mulled. 1215 01:14:05,190 --> 01:14:09,235 This mulling produced the idea to do a TV play 1216 01:14:09,403 --> 01:14:12,989 of a hopefully high caliber, for an accepted show, 1217 01:14:13,157 --> 01:14:16,492 of a decently adult level, treating, in fictional form, 1218 01:14:16,660 --> 01:14:19,287 the kind of experiments you performed and its aftermath. 1219 01:14:19,705 --> 01:14:22,248 Using it as a springboard for my own characters 1220 01:14:22,416 --> 01:14:25,042 and situational inventions. 1221 01:14:25,544 --> 01:14:28,129 I, uh, I kept this. 1222 01:14:30,090 --> 01:14:31,090 D'you see how yellow? 1223 01:14:32,718 --> 01:14:35,428 Stan, sorry, help me. I was just wondering. 1224 01:14:35,596 --> 01:14:37,680 Your name, its derivation? 1225 01:14:38,432 --> 01:14:40,683 Milgram means "pomegranate" in Hebrew. 1226 01:14:40,851 --> 01:14:43,144 It's one of the seven fruits of the Bible. I'm Jewish, 1227 01:14:44,104 --> 01:14:45,605 if that's what you're asking? 1228 01:14:45,772 --> 01:14:47,398 Apples is another, right? 1229 01:14:47,816 --> 01:14:50,276 Figs, grapes. Olives, they're a fruit? 1230 01:14:51,069 --> 01:14:55,406 Anyhow, when you point out the parallels, the connections, 1231 01:14:55,574 --> 01:14:58,868 Hannah Arendt, The Banality of Evil, 1232 01:14:59,036 --> 01:15:03,498 the My Lai massacre, all of that, I see where you're coming from. 1233 01:15:03,665 --> 01:15:06,959 I'm here because a serious situation is pending 1234 01:15:07,127 --> 01:15:09,504 with regard to the drama I propose. 1235 01:15:10,589 --> 01:15:14,884 Playhouse 90, the Columbia Broadcasting System. 1236 01:15:15,427 --> 01:15:16,844 CBS. 1237 01:15:32,819 --> 01:15:35,571 Michele, ma belle. Ca va? 1238 01:15:36,031 --> 01:15:37,281 Hi. 1239 01:15:38,700 --> 01:15:40,159 I was just gonna get some ice cream. 1240 01:16:00,764 --> 01:16:03,140 Whenever I'm up late like this, which is a lot, 1241 01:16:04,101 --> 01:16:05,726 I think of your grandfather. 1242 01:16:05,894 --> 01:16:08,437 - Sam? - Yeah, that was his name. 1243 01:16:08,605 --> 01:16:09,689 Yeah. 1244 01:16:10,774 --> 01:16:12,066 He died. 1245 01:16:12,734 --> 01:16:16,946 That's right, in his sleep. It's the luckiest way, people say, 1246 01:16:17,114 --> 01:16:18,447 not to know what's happening. 1247 01:16:20,075 --> 01:16:21,951 Why... Why did he die? 1248 01:16:22,119 --> 01:16:23,369 Hmm. 1249 01:16:24,788 --> 01:16:26,080 Heart disease. 1250 01:16:27,165 --> 01:16:30,835 It was before you were born, before your mother could meet him. 1251 01:16:32,629 --> 01:16:36,007 He was a baker, his specialty were cakes. 1252 01:16:36,842 --> 01:16:38,050 - He worked late. - Mmm-hmm. 1253 01:16:38,468 --> 01:16:40,219 I got it from him. Maybe you'll get it from me. 1254 01:16:45,434 --> 01:16:47,727 Basically there are three types of people. 1255 01:16:47,894 --> 01:16:50,271 That's what your research confirms. 1256 01:16:51,064 --> 01:16:53,441 There's the person who makes things happen, 1257 01:16:53,609 --> 01:16:55,985 the person who watches things happen, 1258 01:16:56,737 --> 01:16:58,863 then the person who says, "What happened?" 1259 01:16:59,906 --> 01:17:01,866 Right? 1260 01:17:03,118 --> 01:17:06,662 I'm a dramatist, I was explicit, not a scientist. 1261 01:17:07,289 --> 01:17:11,417 Your work is a springboard for revealing basic human truths. 1262 01:17:12,210 --> 01:17:15,254 You get your consultant's fee. What's the problem? 1263 01:17:15,422 --> 01:17:16,881 It isn't about the money. 1264 01:17:22,763 --> 01:17:24,722 I'm sorry, she needs to speak to you again. 1265 01:17:24,890 --> 01:17:26,098 She says it's urgent. 1266 01:17:28,769 --> 01:17:30,269 Tell her to relax. 1267 01:17:37,986 --> 01:17:39,362 Excuse me. 1268 01:18:19,736 --> 01:18:20,986 Dr. Stanley? 1269 01:18:23,156 --> 01:18:24,198 Yes? 1270 01:18:25,033 --> 01:18:27,493 Mr. Bellak won't be back in his office this afternoon. 1271 01:18:28,829 --> 01:18:30,121 Excuse me? 1272 01:18:30,664 --> 01:18:32,498 He can't talk to you today anymore. 1273 01:18:33,583 --> 01:18:35,084 He says you can visit the set. 1274 01:18:38,463 --> 01:18:39,714 Okay. 1275 01:18:54,938 --> 01:18:57,314 So, you sold him the rights? 1276 01:18:59,234 --> 01:19:02,611 No. But it's a gray area. 1277 01:19:03,405 --> 01:19:06,991 But it's your book, it's your work, it's your experiments. 1278 01:19:07,159 --> 01:19:10,369 So either you did it or you sold it or you didn't. Right? 1279 01:19:10,537 --> 01:19:13,205 In the opinion of Harper's legal department, 1280 01:19:13,373 --> 01:19:16,125 we don't have a supportable claim, not on the basis of 1281 01:19:16,293 --> 01:19:19,670 copyright infringement, because the show is fiction. 1282 01:19:20,088 --> 01:19:21,672 Are we finished with this? 1283 01:19:22,591 --> 01:19:24,800 They gave me a consulting fee. Is that enough? 1284 01:19:26,136 --> 01:19:28,763 Your father's turning into a fictional character. 1285 01:19:28,930 --> 01:19:30,806 - Why? - Yes, why? 1286 01:19:30,974 --> 01:19:32,516 And why do they have to make you a goy ? 1287 01:19:32,893 --> 01:19:34,852 It's not about me. I'm just a springboard. 1288 01:19:35,020 --> 01:19:37,313 - Why? - I don't know. 1289 01:19:37,481 --> 01:19:41,525 Oh, I see. So, you had no choice? 1290 01:19:41,693 --> 01:19:45,029 I could just give the money back but they'd make the show anyway. 1291 01:19:45,197 --> 01:19:47,364 Why don't I give the money back? 1292 01:19:47,532 --> 01:19:49,825 I'll give the money back! That's a good idea. 1293 01:19:49,993 --> 01:19:52,536 You know what? You don't have to be so snippy. 1294 01:20:02,923 --> 01:20:05,174 They don't just come in 1295 01:20:05,342 --> 01:20:07,510 and sadistically pull these switches. Bing. Bing. 1296 01:20:07,677 --> 01:20:10,554 They have an inner struggle not to obey. 1297 01:20:12,307 --> 01:20:14,600 Their inner pain is the evidence to that. 1298 01:20:14,768 --> 01:20:16,977 Steven, what you're doing is very important, 1299 01:20:17,187 --> 01:20:19,438 and I love the design. It's audacious. 1300 01:20:22,150 --> 01:20:23,275 And? 1301 01:20:23,735 --> 01:20:27,571 I am being careful, which is why I've got tenure around here 1302 01:20:27,739 --> 01:20:29,824 long before black became popular. 1303 01:20:31,117 --> 01:20:33,285 It's tricky. Very tricky. 1304 01:20:33,662 --> 01:20:36,455 There'll be criticism of anything breaking new ground. 1305 01:20:37,624 --> 01:20:39,959 There are times when your life resembles a bad movie, 1306 01:20:40,126 --> 01:20:43,963 but nothing prepares you if your life actually becomes a bad movie. 1307 01:20:44,130 --> 01:20:47,716 Here's Dr. Steven Turner, Steven/Stanley, Turner/Milgram, 1308 01:20:47,884 --> 01:20:51,804 of Rutledge University, a bachelor and a WASP, 1309 01:20:51,972 --> 01:20:54,348 being played by William Shatner, 1310 01:20:54,933 --> 01:20:57,935 four years after his last Star Trek episode. 1311 01:20:58,103 --> 01:21:01,313 Ossie Davis plays his colleague and best friend. 1312 01:21:02,607 --> 01:21:05,526 I don't believe you're adequately considering... 1313 01:21:06,528 --> 01:21:08,112 faculty reaction. 1314 01:21:08,280 --> 01:21:11,532 You may find yourself teaching in Siberia. 1315 01:21:24,588 --> 01:21:26,463 This has to be somewhat weird for you. 1316 01:21:28,758 --> 01:21:32,011 Well, I've made some films myself actually. 1317 01:21:32,178 --> 01:21:33,387 Documentaries. 1318 01:21:33,847 --> 01:21:37,016 I think Ossie may have meant, and I was wondering also, 1319 01:21:37,517 --> 01:21:41,812 do you have a best friend who is, you know, a brother? 1320 01:21:43,273 --> 01:21:47,401 I mean this tradition of a black best friend, 1321 01:21:48,445 --> 01:21:49,820 where did that come from? 1322 01:21:49,988 --> 01:21:52,281 You don't have a black best friend, Bill? 1323 01:21:52,449 --> 01:21:54,533 No. Do you? 1324 01:21:55,785 --> 01:21:58,621 This character isn't me. I'm just a springboard. 1325 01:21:58,788 --> 01:22:02,541 Did you know I did the first interracial kiss in US TV history? 1326 01:22:03,168 --> 01:22:05,252 Ah, Star Trek, sure. 1327 01:22:06,254 --> 01:22:09,006 I kissed Nichelle Nichols on network TV. 1328 01:22:09,799 --> 01:22:12,301 Controversial, but you did it. 1329 01:22:13,178 --> 01:22:15,220 The network was... nervous. 1330 01:22:16,056 --> 01:22:18,349 They insisted we shoot an alternative version, 1331 01:22:19,017 --> 01:22:22,061 but during the close up I did this... 1332 01:22:26,608 --> 01:22:31,153 First time, 1968, in the history of TV. 1333 01:22:34,824 --> 01:22:36,825 I've read about your experiments, Doctor. 1334 01:22:40,830 --> 01:22:42,998 Did you happen to use any black folks? 1335 01:22:43,208 --> 01:22:44,416 Yes, of course. 1336 01:22:47,921 --> 01:22:49,129 And the results? 1337 01:22:49,714 --> 01:22:51,966 They fared the same as everyone else. 1338 01:22:52,133 --> 01:22:54,551 Roughly 65 percent compliant. 1339 01:22:54,719 --> 01:22:57,096 You didn't force or threaten anyone, right? 1340 01:22:57,263 --> 01:22:59,139 - No. - You didn't twist anyone's arm? 1341 01:22:59,307 --> 01:23:02,059 - No, no. - Didn't hold a gun to anyone's head? 1342 01:23:02,560 --> 01:23:05,437 You see, it brings to mind when I was six or seven years old, 1343 01:23:05,605 --> 01:23:06,897 coming home from school. 1344 01:23:07,941 --> 01:23:10,693 Two policemen call me over from their car. 1345 01:23:11,528 --> 01:23:14,405 "Come over here, boy. Come on over." 1346 01:23:15,615 --> 01:23:17,241 - Have I heard this one? - No. 1347 01:23:18,743 --> 01:23:20,244 They tell me to get into the car, 1348 01:23:20,412 --> 01:23:22,079 and they take me to the precinct station. 1349 01:23:23,790 --> 01:23:26,542 Then one of them takes a jar of cane syrup 1350 01:23:26,710 --> 01:23:28,002 and pours it over my head. 1351 01:23:29,254 --> 01:23:33,215 And they both laugh like it's the funniest thing in the world. 1352 01:23:33,925 --> 01:23:35,175 I laugh too. 1353 01:23:36,970 --> 01:23:40,639 Then they give me hunks of peanut brittle and let me go. 1354 01:23:42,350 --> 01:23:45,060 It took me 30 years before I told anyone. 1355 01:23:46,855 --> 01:23:49,481 Where was this, Ossie? Down South? 1356 01:23:49,649 --> 01:23:51,734 Well, it doesn't matter where, and that's my point. 1357 01:23:52,736 --> 01:23:54,028 You don't have to go to Germany 1358 01:23:54,195 --> 01:23:56,405 to learn about obedience to authority. 1359 01:23:56,573 --> 01:23:58,782 This in the book. Actually, it's the tenth chapter, 1360 01:23:58,950 --> 01:24:02,202 - which very few people get to. - The Tenth Level. 1361 01:24:03,038 --> 01:24:06,331 The agentic state, in which the demands of 1362 01:24:06,499 --> 01:24:09,668 the democratically installed authority conflict with conscience. 1363 01:24:10,211 --> 01:24:11,628 The Banality of Evil. 1364 01:24:15,508 --> 01:24:18,052 I don't take responsibility. Do you take responsibility? 1365 01:24:18,428 --> 01:24:20,888 I take responsibility. Now count that as wrong. 1366 01:24:21,639 --> 01:24:23,057 No response counts as wrong. 1367 01:24:23,224 --> 01:24:25,601 You pull the switch then, dammit! Come on, you pull the switch! 1368 01:24:26,436 --> 01:24:28,020 Mr. Dahlquist, that's your job. 1369 01:24:29,939 --> 01:24:31,398 No, I won't. 1370 01:24:31,775 --> 01:24:33,525 Nobody can learn anything like this. 1371 01:24:35,528 --> 01:24:37,738 There was a time, I suspect, when men and women 1372 01:24:37,906 --> 01:24:40,616 could give a fully human response to any situation. 1373 01:24:40,784 --> 01:24:44,286 When we could be fully absorbed in the world as human beings. 1374 01:24:45,246 --> 01:24:46,914 But more often, now, 1375 01:24:48,333 --> 01:24:50,292 people don't get to see the whole situation 1376 01:24:50,460 --> 01:24:52,127 but only some small part of it. 1377 01:24:52,295 --> 01:24:55,547 There's a division of labor, and people carry out small, 1378 01:24:55,715 --> 01:24:57,633 narrow, specialized jobs, 1379 01:24:58,301 --> 01:25:01,512 and we can't act without some kind of direction from on high. 1380 01:25:03,223 --> 01:25:05,265 I call this "the agentic state". 1381 01:25:06,017 --> 01:25:08,435 The individual yields to authority, 1382 01:25:08,603 --> 01:25:12,064 and in doing so becomes alienated from his own actions. 1383 01:25:13,441 --> 01:25:15,776 Mr. Dahlquist, you agreed to the rules. 1384 01:25:15,944 --> 01:25:19,279 The agentic state is "store policy". 1385 01:25:19,572 --> 01:25:21,824 It's, "I'm just doing my job." 1386 01:25:22,992 --> 01:25:25,369 Or, "That's not my job." 1387 01:25:25,578 --> 01:25:28,539 Or, "I don't make the rules." "We don't do that here." 1388 01:25:29,082 --> 01:25:32,251 "Just following orders." "It's the law." 1389 01:25:33,253 --> 01:25:35,546 In the agentic state, the individual defines himself 1390 01:25:35,755 --> 01:25:38,507 as an instrument carrying out the wishes of others. 1391 01:25:39,259 --> 01:25:41,510 A soldier, a nurse, an administrator. 1392 01:25:41,970 --> 01:25:43,011 An actor. 1393 01:25:43,179 --> 01:25:48,183 A corporate employee, or even, yes, academics and artists. 1394 01:25:48,351 --> 01:25:52,062 - Please continue. - Oh, God. Oh, God. 1395 01:25:53,022 --> 01:25:54,690 - Mr. Dahlquist? - Just shut up a minute! 1396 01:25:55,984 --> 01:25:57,192 Now, hold on. 1397 01:26:01,406 --> 01:26:04,158 - Come on, come on. - Son of a bitch! 1398 01:26:05,076 --> 01:26:07,244 A person has a choice. 1399 01:26:07,871 --> 01:26:10,330 He or she chooses to become agentic. 1400 01:26:11,040 --> 01:26:15,586 But once you assume the role, it's almost impossible to go back. 1401 01:26:17,839 --> 01:26:19,006 Wrong. 1402 01:26:19,757 --> 01:26:21,842 A hundred and ninety five volts. 1403 01:26:22,385 --> 01:26:24,386 "Dance." 1404 01:26:25,680 --> 01:26:28,015 Let me out of here! Let me out! 1405 01:26:28,183 --> 01:26:30,184 - Continue, please. - We always asked, 1406 01:26:30,351 --> 01:26:32,060 "Is there anything the man could've said 1407 01:26:32,228 --> 01:26:34,104 to stop you from administering the shocks?" 1408 01:26:34,355 --> 01:26:36,607 And they'd always say, "No, I don't think so. No." 1409 01:26:36,774 --> 01:26:38,233 I told you I have a heart condition! 1410 01:26:47,118 --> 01:26:48,327 Michele. 1411 01:26:48,494 --> 01:26:50,579 Sit up here. All right? 1412 01:26:54,709 --> 01:26:56,084 Could we get a couple of hot chocolates? 1413 01:26:56,252 --> 01:26:57,753 - You want hot chocolate? - Yes, please. 1414 01:26:57,921 --> 01:27:00,088 - Hot chocolates all around? - Yeah, yeah. 1415 01:27:00,256 --> 01:27:02,799 Do you want anything? Okay, no, we're fine. 1416 01:27:03,760 --> 01:27:06,595 I need you to stay put, stay in your seats. Okay? 1417 01:27:17,106 --> 01:27:18,273 I'm sorry. 1418 01:27:20,610 --> 01:27:23,028 I could say it a thousand times and mean it every time. 1419 01:27:25,823 --> 01:27:28,242 Marc, turn around in your seat. 1420 01:27:35,792 --> 01:27:37,084 Piaget. 1421 01:27:40,505 --> 01:27:43,048 You remember when I was translating Piaget? 1422 01:27:45,718 --> 01:27:48,053 I hit this line about child development. 1423 01:27:49,514 --> 01:27:54,142 It's the specific point when the growing child is able 1424 01:27:54,310 --> 01:27:58,272 to recognize a gap between what exists and what might exist. 1425 01:27:58,439 --> 01:28:01,566 And it occurred to me, we choose our reality 1426 01:28:01,734 --> 01:28:03,360 when we choose another person. 1427 01:28:06,823 --> 01:28:08,198 What does that mean? 1428 01:28:09,409 --> 01:28:11,368 Marriage is not a fantasy. 1429 01:28:11,661 --> 01:28:15,580 No, no, no, right. 1430 01:28:16,082 --> 01:28:17,416 Right. 1431 01:28:19,460 --> 01:28:21,211 But it is a choice. 1432 01:28:23,423 --> 01:28:28,093 You have to know that I choose you. 1433 01:28:29,929 --> 01:28:32,014 Every day I choose you. 1434 01:28:44,527 --> 01:28:46,153 1984. 1435 01:28:47,238 --> 01:28:49,072 1984 was a big year for me. 1436 01:28:49,615 --> 01:28:51,825 My lecture fees peaked, I was asked to speak 1437 01:28:51,993 --> 01:28:54,995 all over the world, about the obedience experiments, 1438 01:28:55,580 --> 01:28:58,874 of course, in relation to Orwell's prophetic book. 1439 01:28:59,042 --> 01:29:02,711 A book that describes a totalitarian world 1440 01:29:02,879 --> 01:29:05,464 where people aren't very good at thinking for themselves. 1441 01:29:13,056 --> 01:29:15,557 ♪ Who can explain it? ♪ 1442 01:29:15,725 --> 01:29:18,268 ♪ Who can tell you why ♪ 1443 01:29:18,436 --> 01:29:21,146 ♪ Fools give you reasons ♪ 1444 01:29:21,314 --> 01:29:28,111 ♪ Wise men never try ♪ 1445 01:29:30,198 --> 01:29:33,784 1984 was also the year that I died. 1446 01:29:44,712 --> 01:29:46,171 I was 51. 1447 01:29:52,720 --> 01:29:56,264 Excuse me? We need to see a doctor immediately. 1448 01:29:56,641 --> 01:29:59,601 I'm Stanley Milgram. This is my ID. 1449 01:29:59,769 --> 01:30:01,728 I believe I'm having my fifth heart attack. 1450 01:30:03,898 --> 01:30:05,399 Dr. Heissenbuttel-- 1451 01:30:05,608 --> 01:30:07,692 That's who treated me last time. 1452 01:30:07,860 --> 01:30:09,861 You need to fill this out. 1453 01:30:10,029 --> 01:30:11,655 The agentic personality. 1454 01:31:14,886 --> 01:31:16,928 No one can truly know what they might or might not do 1455 01:31:17,096 --> 01:31:20,348 when presented with the demands of a particular situation. 1456 01:31:21,350 --> 01:31:24,269 In 2008, a professor at Santa Clara University replicated 1457 01:31:24,437 --> 01:31:28,356 the obedience experiments and got roughly the same results. 1458 01:31:28,524 --> 01:31:31,401 Over 60 percent of volunteers delivered the full shocks. 1459 01:31:32,403 --> 01:31:34,988 In 2010, the experiments were duplicated 1460 01:31:35,156 --> 01:31:37,324 on a French reality TV show, 1461 01:31:37,492 --> 01:31:40,076 Le Jeu de la Mort, The Game of Death. 1462 01:31:40,244 --> 01:31:43,246 Participants were egged on by a live studio audience. 1463 01:31:43,831 --> 01:31:45,832 Over 80 percent went all the way. 1464 01:31:54,258 --> 01:31:57,093 Alexandra Milgram, Sasha, 1465 01:31:57,261 --> 01:31:59,346 continues to live in the apartment we shared 1466 01:31:59,514 --> 01:32:03,099 in Riverdale. Our children live with their children 1467 01:32:03,267 --> 01:32:04,976 near Boston and Toronto. 1468 01:32:06,187 --> 01:32:07,896 Sasha never remarried. 1469 01:32:13,736 --> 01:32:16,112 The obedience experiments are cited and discussed 1470 01:32:16,531 --> 01:32:20,283 in nearly every introductory psychology textbook worldwide. 1471 01:32:21,536 --> 01:32:23,578 My obedience film is screened 1472 01:32:23,746 --> 01:32:25,956 for every incoming class at West Point. 1473 01:32:26,999 --> 01:32:30,252 And my methods and results continue to be challenged, 1474 01:32:30,419 --> 01:32:32,295 scorned, debunked, 1475 01:32:32,463 --> 01:32:35,173 yet every time a new outrage is unleashed into the world, 1476 01:32:35,383 --> 01:32:38,093 sanctioned and systematic acts of violence, 1477 01:32:38,261 --> 01:32:40,971 the obedience experiments re-enter the conversation, 1478 01:32:41,389 --> 01:32:43,265 re-framing unanswerable questions. 1479 01:32:45,434 --> 01:32:47,060 You could say we're puppets. 1480 01:32:48,020 --> 01:32:53,608 But I believe that we are puppets with perception, 1481 01:32:53,776 --> 01:32:55,193 with awareness. 1482 01:32:55,361 --> 01:33:00,574 Sometimes we can see the strings and, perhaps, 1483 01:33:00,741 --> 01:33:04,202 our awareness is the first step in our liberation.